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Dave View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2000 at 8:53pm
Hello Lurker,> I never argued that a person CANNOT (I am not a Nazi thought-police> kind of guy), I merely argue that a person SHOULD NOT keep the same> old style for ever, including long hair.I certainly have my preferences regarding hair; however, I will neverin my right mind say that a person "should" have long hair. I have aproblem with your application of the concept of "should" as it relatesto hairstyle choices. Merriam-Webster's dictionary defines "should"as "used to express a command or exhortation, and "exhortation" as"language intended to incite and encourage." My problem is this: whoare you exactly to say to others what they should do? I don't ask thisas a personal jab, but rather inquiring as to the authority or otherbasis upon which you make your statement?> To me, keeping the same old long hair is just boring and pointless.Merriam-Webster's defines "boring" as "causing boredom." So, in otherwords, you are stating that "people who wear the same old long hairare causing you boredom." You should (yes, I mean "should") be awarethat it is not the responsibility of others to help you to avoidboredom.> nobody drives the same car forever, nobody works at the same job> forever.Some people do work at the same job for their entire career. I knowseveral people who have done just that. And some people drive thesame car for very close to forever. Whether or not I agree with theirchoice is irrelevant. The point is that it can and does happen.>Day 900, same old stuff; Day 901, same old stuff; Day 902, same old>stuff;.......Day 1000, maybe try something NEW for a change!!!! Like a>new, shorter haircut....Day 1000, short haircut; Day 1001, short hair; Day 1002, short hair.Day 1003, still short hair; Day 1004, long hair... oops!! not possible!And then the person would be in the position of trying to make that"new," shorter haircut look different every day. Is it easier tomake short, or long, hair look more different on a day-to-day basis?That's a subjective matter, and there are people that believe that longhair offers more versatility, to which I would agree, in part becausethere is more of the substance (hair) with which to work.Dave
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Zorak the Frisbee (used to be Lurker) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zorak the Frisbee (used to be Lurker) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2000 at 8:53pm
> Hair is a totally diffirent issue. It like choising if> you are a lacy type of person etc. It is part of one> personality and choice only . It has nothing to do> with character.I don't follow your argument here. I have always said that I just don't have a problem with how any individual chooses to style or color or cut their hair. What I do take issue with is this ridiculous blanket statement that some people always make, about always having long hair, never wanting to cut their hair, existing in a "perfect state", etc.My whole point is that change is here, it is the essence of life, so why is it that people always try to stick themselves in a rut? Why do people cling so hard to old ways and such, like old hairstyles? Why work so hard to build a bubble around yourself?I absolutely DO think that people who try to deny the fundamental nature of change are BORING. If you don't agree, that is your business. BUT, most people will change many times in their lives, and they should not be afraid to take the plunge when they feel like it.As to the change itself: cutting one's hair is a big deal, and it is a kind of statement about who you are. Hairstyles and such are a BIG issue...heck, it was probably the one big issue for many parents and kids in the 1960's, because long hippie hair was a sign of rebellion against society. Perhaps one of the quickest ways to change your appearance drastically is to cut or color your hair, and there is nothing wrong with that.> You are judging people.I have merely made a general statement, I have not applied it to any individual, just a class of people. Besides, we all judge people every day.> That would like me saying" hell anyone that calls himself> Lurker is not very creative "OK, from now on I will call myself something else. How about Zorak the Frisbee?> okay it was my opinion but was it right ? Of course> not.No, it was not. But, to make you happy, I am now known as Zorak the Frisbee.> It is insulting and it is also insulting to hear> such a stupid comment from you saying that keeping> long hair for years is boring.I guess that you mean it is doubly insulting, right? I don't really think that it is a stupid comment, though. It is my opinion, and I am entitled to it, and this is a public forum, and I will speak my piece.I have not single out any one person and called them boring or any other names, I merely state my general opinion that people who keep the same hairstyle for years are boring.> Who the heck are you to say that?Why, I am Zorak the Frisbee!> For all you Dawn is the most exciting person> on earth and she always had long hair but with that> opinion of yours you limit yourself to whom you would> find exciting etc.Maybe she it, I don't know her personally. Generalities are sometimes wrong when applied to individuals. I never called anyone anything, I just made a general statement.
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Zorak the Frisbee (used to be Lurker) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zorak the Frisbee (used to be Lurker) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2000 at 8:53pm
Note, in deference to Diane from Canada's concern, I am now known as Zorak the Frisbee.> Merriam-Webster's dictionary defines "should"> as "used to express a command or exhortation, and> "exhortation" as "language intended to incite and > encourage."Yes. I encourage people to change, as change is the essence of existance. Everything changes. Why should people make a decision to stick themselves into a rut in life?Look, I don't have anything anything against long hair. I also would tell people who have had short hair for years that maybe they sould try something new. If a guy has had a beard for years, maybe he should try shaving it, or trimming it into a goatee.Of course, they can do whatever they want.> My problem is this: who are you exactly to say to others > what they should do?I am not telling anyone WHAT to do, just reminding them that doing something different is cool, it is OK, and that often it can be fun.> .....rather inquiring as to the authority or other> basis upon which you make your statement?Oh Christ , like I need an AUTHORITY to have an OPINION?? Gee Dave, do you need an "authority" to tell you when to eat and sleep? :-)> Merriam-Webster's defines "boring" as "causing boredom."> So, in other words, you are stating that "people who wear> the same old long hair are causing you boredom."Maybe I am saying they are causing THEMSELVES to be bored, and they don't even know it! Sometimes one can be too close to a problem to see the truth. I just want people to stop being so stuck in a rut.> Some people do work at the same job for their entire> career. I know several people who have done just that.BORING (there, I said it **again**).> And some people drive the same car for very close to> forever.BORING (**again**). Stuck in a rut, perhaps.> Day 1000, short haircut; Day 1001, short hair; Day> 1002, short hair.> Day 1003, still short hair; Day 1004, long hair...> oops!! not possible!Day 100, short haircut; Day 200, growing out hair; Day 300, medium-length hair; Day 500, getting longer hair; Day 700, long hair...Day 1000, super-long.....I think that I will try something new! Perhaps a cute bob, or a shoulder-length layred look.> And then the person would be in the position of trying> to make that.....shorter haircut look different every> day.Its called growing your hair out longer.> ....and there are people that believe that long hair> offers more versatility,True versatility means that a person is not fanatically locked into a paradigm of "gotta have long (or short, or permed, or blonde) hair ALWAYS". Real versatility means that a person is open to the idea of change, that they are not scared to death of getting their long hair cut short, OR letting their short hair grow long, or trying something new, like a different style or color.Zorak
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Diane from Canada View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Diane from Canada Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2000 at 8:53pm
> Note, in deference to Diane from Canada's concern, I> am now known as Zorak the Frisbee.Hey Zorak! Cute name but I never ask you to change for me. I am flatter. Heck we might end up friends lol Are you enjoying this because you seem to throw a bunch of stuff that really doesn't belong to the topic. Okay I am still with you on this.( Diane)> Yes. I encourage people to change, as change is the> essence of existance. Everything changes. Why should> people make a decision to stick themselves into a rut> in life?You are not responsible for people and hair cut and hair colors would change the world. ( Diane)> Look, I don't have anything anything against long> hair. I also would tell people who have had short hair> for years that maybe they sould try something new. If> a guy has had a beard for years, maybe he should try> shaving it, or trimming it into a goatee.Heck I love beards and mustaches but goatee I cannot get use to it. lol Yes I am playing with you . ( Diane)> Of course, they can do whatever they want.> I am not telling anyone WHAT to do, just reminding> them that doing something different is cool, it is OK,> and that often it can be fun.Danger danger sometimes too much change can be so boring . ( diane)> Oh Christ , like I need an AUTHORITY to have an> OPINION?? Gee Dave, do you need an> "authority" to tell you when to eat and> sleep? :-)Okay that one belongs to Dave. HE is big boy. I don't need to defend him . ( Diane)> Maybe I am saying they are causing THEMSELVES to be> bored, and they don't even know it! Sometimes one can> be too close to a problem to see the truth. I just> want people to stop being so stuck in a rut.Well if people don't know they are bored then in reality they are not. Stop trying to save the world. People will do what they have to do in life. ( Diane)> BORING (there, I said it **again**).> BORING (**again**). Stuck in a rut, perhaps.> Day 100, short haircut; Day 200, growing out hair; Day> 300, medium-length hair; Day 500, getting longer hair;> Day 700, long hair...Day 1000, super-long.....I think> that I will try something new! Perhaps a cute bob, or> a shoulder-length layred look.Very funny. Are you guys going to play this game for long? This is silly.Long hair is very exciting for me and it is for many women.Why can't you accept that? ( Diane)> Its called growing your hair out longer.> True versatility means that a person is not> fanatically locked into a paradigm of "gotta have> long (or short, or permed, or blonde) hair> ALWAYS". Real versatility means that a person is> open to the idea of change, that they are not scared> to death of getting their long hair cut short, OR> letting their short hair grow long, or trying> something new, like a different style or color.> ZorakYa okay but just because someone loves having long hair for years doesn't mean it is boring. Yes it was just your opinion. Women are sensitive you know.I asked you when was the last time you actually did something drastic to your hair and you didn't really do anything drastic. Are you finish with this?Because people have a right to wear their hair the way they want and just because somone decides to stay with a certain style for years is only their business and noone else.Diane
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Dave View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2000 at 8:53pm
>If you go to your high schools's 20-year reunion, and everybody still>acts the same way they did in high school, wouldn't you think they>were arrested in their development?>If you go to your high schools's 20-year reunion, and everybody still>has the exact same hairstyle from the past, wouldn't you think they>were arrested in their development?The two situations are not analogous.I sense that you are arguing here that a person who wears the samehairstyle that they did 20 years ago demonstrates a lack of socialdevelopment. According to your argument then, about 50% of the menI know must be in a state of arrested social development. But theseare ordinary guys (not "beer belching bozos", as you characterize it)who most certainly have matured in an appreciable manner.There is no rule that says that a person must change EVERYTHING aboutthemselves within a given period of time. And just exactly what wouldbe an "acceptably" (acceptable to you, presumably) short time intervalat which to change one's hairstyle, or anything else?> I still have my opinion... in general with respect to people's> unwillingness to change with time.People will change at whatever interval suits them, or they may notchange. What you have characterized as somebody else's "unwillingness"to change may very well be to them something that they like very much.> Look, years from now YOU may change your mind completely of your own> free will.And today Diane has chosen of her own free will to enjoy her long hair.I sense a suggestion on your part that Diane somehow is not presentlyacting of her own free will. I sense that Diane is very much actingof her own free will today.> I know that you probably think that this sounds crazy, but who knows....> people DO change with time, and you are not now the person that you> were ten years ago: you are older and more mature, and ten years from> now you will be different than you are today.> I guess that what I am saying is: don't ever shut yourself off to> possibilities; don't grow stale and get stuck in a rut; be open to change.I have long hair now, and forsee myself having long hair in ten yearsfrom now. I am fully aware of the "possibilities" regarding other hairlengths and styles -- my eyes work very well. It's not a matter of"shutting myself off" to possibilties, but rather, it is a matter ofgoing for or staying with the choice that I want and that I like,whether or not it involves change.And if you feel that I will be "stale" and "stuck in a rut," you areentitled to your opinion. Don't expect me to share in your disappointment.> Agreed. But I still maintain that most normally developing people will> change MANY times during their lives...this is NORMAL.Change *what* though? Sure, change is inevitable. Even the continentschange position over the course of eons. And yes, even popular hairstyleschange over the course of time.One way to view a person who does not make rapid or frequent changes isthat they have been wise to have made choices that please them (and sothey stay with those choices), and/or they do not feel unfulfilled in thechoices they make or do not look to the process of change for fulfillment.> WRONG! Color-changing contact lenses are very popular, and lots of> people change their skin color annually: they get a tan. Lots of> people who have very dark skin take pills to lighten their skin.Wrong? Color-changing contact lenses exist; I'm not sure how popularthey are.To an extent, yes, there are those who take pride in the acquisition ofa tan. But for others, it's the by-product of seasonal sun exposurereceived while doing favored outdoor activities (with lighter and lessclothing).Never heard of people taking pills to lighten their skin.> EXACTLY why I say that it is HEALTHY and GOOD for a relationship to> change you look and appearance! People tend to get bored with the same> old thing year after year after year!Some change, some don't. I understand and accept that some people chooseto explicitly change appearances, and also that some people choose not toexplicitly change appearances. You, however, do not seem to want to acceptthat some people choose not to make explicit changes to their appearance.> Some people have affairs. Most people choose to stick with their spouse,> but like to see them CHANGE over the years!Wow. That's quite a statement.> It is NOT abnormal at all to change one's appearance! In fact, I argue> that it IS abnormal to hang onto the same old look year after year....> it is called "arrested development".It isn't abnormal to change one's appearance. Change happens in two ways:the aging process, and by other explicit actions. Presumably you'retalking about the latter. Re: the charge of "arrested development"see the beginning of this response.> BUT, to make a blanket statement "I will never change, I will never> cut my hair" is absurd!I can't speak for others but I see it as a statement of intent and will.Given that both are strong why would you want to knock that down?Do you wish to soften their will to have and retain what they want?>> How many times do you do the same thing and never get>> sick of it? If you really enjoy something you can do>> it over and over again without getting tired of it.>> Maybe if you have an addiction, or a compulsive personality.So just what is the limit of your enjoyment of hairstyle change beforeit could be described as being "addictive" or "compulsive?"Dave
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Diane from Canada View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Diane from Canada Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2000 at 8:53pm
> I don't follow your argument here. I have always said> that I just don't have a problem with how any> individual chooses to style or color or cut their> hair. What I do take issue with is this ridiculous> blanket statement that some people always make, about> always having long hair, never wanting to cut their> hair, existing in a "perfect state", etc.That is the whole point. Long hair to some people fit very much their personality and would feel nude without it period. For me I cannot see myself ever wanting to cut it. I had short hair and I prefer long hair and I am far from boring. IN fact I love life and enjoy all kinds of foods, wines etc but my hair is very personal and I am keeping it long and letting it grow very long. People that go around and have similar opinion as yourself cannot seem to mind their own business and always offer their advice " Gee you are getting close to being 40 cut your hair" "Gee you have too much hair, cut it" Why can't people allow people to wear their hair the way they wnat it period and never mind if it is boring to the public or not. ( Diane)> My whole point is that change is here, it is the> essence of life, so why is it that people always try> to stick themselves in a rut? Why do people cling so> hard to old ways and such, like old hairstyles? Why> work so hard to build a bubble around yourself?If I had that answer I would be practicing pychology without a license. What does that have to do with hair? ( Diane)> I absolutely DO think that people who try to deny the> fundamental nature of change are BORING. If you don't> agree, that is your business. BUT, most people will> change many times in their lives, and they should not> be afraid to take the plunge when they feel like it.Again that is part of character and has nothing to do with hair .( Diane)> As to the change itself: cutting one's hair is a big> deal, and it is a kind of statement about who you are.> Hairstyles and such are a BIG issue...heck, it was> probably the one big issue for many parents and kids> in the 1960's, because long hippie hair was a sign of> rebellion against society. Perhaps one of the quickest> ways to change your appearance drastically is to cut> or color your hair, and there is nothing wrong with> that.I never said that there was anything wrong with it. IN fact I am not the one saying it is boring etc you are the one saying all this. I never have a bad hair day. Think about it. ( Diane)> I have merely made a general statement, I have not> applied it to any individual, just a class of people.> Besides, we all judge people every day.Here we go again. You assume that everyone thinks like you. Personally I really try to accept people the way they are. ( Diane)> OK, from now on I will call myself something else. How> about Zorak the Frisbee?How did you come up with that name? ( Diane)> No, it was not. But, to make you happy, I am now known> as Zorak the Frisbee.> I guess that you mean it is doubly insulting, right? I> don't really think that it is a stupid comment,> though. It is my opinion, and I am entitled to it, and> this is a public forum, and I will speak my piece.Sure you can speak your mind but you have no rights to insult anyone. ( Diane)> I have not single out any one person and called them> boring or any other names, I merely state my general> opinion that people who keep the same hairstyle for> years are boring.Personally I think that a narrow minded answer because you only see one way and not all sides. ( Diane)> Why, I am Zorak the Frisbee!> Maybe she it, I don't know her personally.> Generalities are sometimes wrong when applied to> individuals. I never called anyone anything, I just> made a general statement.Okay Zorak the Frisbee I have enjoy our discussion and the point I am staying with isJust became someone has found a style that they have love for years like long hair it doesn't make them boring because hair has nothing to do with character.Diane
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Dave View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2000 at 8:53pm
> Note, in deference to Diane from Canada's concern, I am now known as> Zorak the Frisbee.Cody is a nice name, too. Or how about Chuck?>> Merriam-Webster's dictionary defines "should">> as "used to express a command or exhortation, and>> "exhortation" as "language intended to incite and > encourage.">>Yes. I encourage people to change, as change is the essence of existance.Did you know that it is some people's essense to choose to stay with adecision for as long as it works for them, even if it is an entire lifetime?> Everything changes.So if everything changes why then do you need to encourage it?> Why should people make a decision to stick themselves into a rut in life?Why should people be made to feel that if a decision continuesto work for them that their choice be characterized in such anunflattering way?Honestly, ask yourself if you live up to your professed standard. I amwilling to bet that there are a number of things which you could chooseto change on a basis more frequently than you do. At some point, wouldyour life be consumed by doing things purely to achieve some sort ofchange? What have you not changed since yesterday? I won't teasinglychide you as to why you haven't changed every imagineable thing. Whoknows, there may be a person out there who values change at a morefrequent rate than do you, who might speak unfavorably of your "slow"rate of change on some aspect of your appearance, personality, or behavior.At some point, if you change so much and so often, the very realquestion becomes, "who are you?"Dave (who is sticking with the same old, boring name)
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Zorak the Frisbee (used to be Lurker) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zorak the Frisbee (used to be Lurker) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2000 at 8:53pm
> Cody is a nice name, too. Or how about Chuck?Chuck sounds a little too vulgar, and Cody was a dude I knew in high school that I didn't like. Zorak it is!> Did you know that it is some people's essense to choose> to stay with a decision for as long as it works for them,> even if it is an entire lifetime?What a bummer, IMO.> So if everything changes why then do you need to> encourage it?I am not encouraging "change" as if I were speaking to the abstract concept, I am merely saying that individuals in general should be open to the concept, not be afraid or worried, not try to lock their lives up tight in a controlled little bundle.> Why should people be made to feel that if a decision> continues to work for them that their choice be> characterized in such an unflattering way?Look, don't take this all so personally; I have not singled out anyone for harsh treatment. Maybe you are right, maybe "boring" is too harsh a word (I still don't think so, but I am willing to change :-); maybe I should refrain from using such a statement.> At some point, would your life be consumed by doing things> purely to achieve some sort of change? What have you not> changed since yesterday?Don't misunderstand: I don't mean to say that people should change every day. Most people go through long periods of stability, puncutated with periods of big changes. The periods of change that are natural, just as are the periods of long stability. But, just because you are in a period of stability NOW does not mean that it will always be so.When it comes time to change, don't be afraid to let go of the past.Z.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zorak the Frisbee (used to be Lurker) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2000 at 8:53pm
> Hey Zorak! Cute name but I never ask you to change for> me. I am flatter.Awww, what the heck. I kinda like Zorak, it has a kind of spacy, futuristic sound.> Danger danger sometimes too much change can be so> boring . ( diane)See my post to Dave. I don't advocate constant change, I simply state that when the time comes, don't be afraid to make the change.Yeah, I agree that too much change too fast can be very distubing to some people...most people, in fact. There is a lot to be said for long periods of stability in one's life. But, the time to make a break with the past will arrive at some point.> Stop trying to save the world.> People will do what they have to do in life. ( Diane)You are right, most will do what it takes to make it work. Some do crater and burnout though.> Long hair is very exciting for me and it is for many> women.Why can't you accept that? ( Diane)I CAN accept that. I like long hair too. I love long brunette hair with just a little bit of a wave in it, healthy and shiny. Yum.> Ya okay but just because someone loves having long> hair for years doesn't mean it is boring. Yes it was> just your opinion. Women are sensitive you know.See my post to Dave. I can change the words I use (without really changing my opinion). I will refrain from using words that offend you.> I asked you when was the last time you actually did> something drastic to your hair and you didn't really> do anything drastic.No? It felt and looked pretty drastic to me. Granted it was not flaming orange, but 1/4" is pretty short, considering that it was to my shoulders when I started on it. It left quite a pile of hair on the bathroom floor.Once I did get it shaved completely, but that was over 10 years ago. And I did put some red dye in it once in college, but that was over 20 years ago.> Because people have a right to wear their hair the way> they want and just because somone decides to stay with> a certain style for years is only their business and> noone else.Oh, I have always said that it is their own choice. I just find it, well, lets say kind of.....(cannot use the "B" word here)...well, lets just say that it is their choice and leave it at that, my opinion doesn't count (but you already know what it is anyway!).Z.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zorak the Frisbee (used to be Lurker) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2000 at 8:53pm
> The two situations are not analogous.> I sense that you are arguing here that a person who> wears the same hairstyle that they did 20 years ago> demonstrates a lack of social development.It falls into the "necesary vs. sufficent" argument. Certainly it is a clue, but in itself is not indicitve of a lack of social development.> According to your argument then, about 50% of the men> I know must be in a state of arrested social development.Fifty percent sounds a little high, but 30% to 35% is probably about right for the population as a whole.> But these are ordinary guys (not "beer belching> bozos", as you characterize it) who most certainly have> matured in an appreciable manner.The "beer belching bozos" referred to the hypothetical man who spends his days watching TV football...yes, those kinds of people are acting silly, like little kids.Personally, I don't know many people at all who have the same hairstyle they did in college, much less high school.> And just exactly what would be an "acceptably"> (acceptable to you, presumably) short time interval> at which to change one's hairstyle, or anything else?I don't wan to create the impression that there is a "standard time interval" over which I claim that people must change their behavior, hair, etc. to be "normal".I merely state that people will change, it is normal that they do. People who don't ever change are not normal.As to time intervals, it is a matter of the individual in question, kind of a reasonable man test. One year: probably not. Five years: maybe. Ten years: if not, they may be showing signs of stagnation. Twenty years: if somone has not chaged in 20 years, then I would definitely think there is something kinda funny about them.> What you have characterized as somebody else's> "unwillingness" to change may very well be to them> something that they like very much.Lots of people like weird things. If they have this aversion to ANY change, then I think that is a little weird. Of course, they DO have that right, no laws against being weird.> And today Diane has chosen of her own free will to> enjoy her long hair.Cool.> I sense a suggestion on your part that Diane somehow> is not presently acting of her own free will.Not at all, I merely suggest that if a person decides to change, it probably will be a choice that they make. The idea here is that what people want CHANGES with time. You can desperately want something today that ten years down the road man not even elicit a response!> I sense that Diane is very much acting> of her own free will today.No doubt. And tomorrow, and next year, and next decade. Just don't be suprised if 10 years from now the choices a person makes are nothing like the onesthey make today. It is a natural progression.> I have long hair now, and forsee myself having long> hair in ten years from now.Ten years ago I forsaw myself quite differently that I am today. All differences are of my own free will and the choices I have made. I am just different now that I thought I would be back then. I have changed my mind on A LOT of subjects: politics, lifestyle, etc.Never say never!!> it is a matter of going for or staying with the choice> that I want and that I like, whether or not it involves> change.I simply state that the choice you make today may well not be the choice you make tomorrw; of course, it may be the choice you make tomorrow.> To an extent, yes, there are those who take pride in> the acquisition of a tan. But for others, it's the> by-product of seasonal sun exposure received while doing> favored outdoor activitiesYeah, like laying outside for hours on end to get a tan! Get real, LOTS of people work very hard to get that "perfect tan".....they spend HOURS just laying in one spot baking away to get that golden bronze look.> Never heard of people taking pills to lighten their> skin.Michael Jackson is the first that comes to mind.....> You, however, do not seem to want to accept> that some people choose not to make explicit changes> to their appearance.I do accept it. I maintain that what they choose today may not be what they choose tomorrow.Z.
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The original Dawn from RareGems View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The original Dawn from RareGems Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2000 at 8:53pm
> Not really. You make a decision to grow your hair,> fine. But then to stay entrenched with this idea> forever becomes, IMO, BORING (yeah, I said it> **again**).To have hair to your knees, by definition, requires becoming "entrenched" in the idea of long hair. If I were "entrenched" in the notion that change is always good, I could never have the kind of hair I desire, its a simple matter of longevity of commitment.> IMO, people who keep on doing the same old thing for> years are BORING (yeah, **again**!).Its been my experience that boredom is the end result of being boring yourself, not something external that affects you but an internal state of mind.> So? That is what a debate is about, right? You have an> opinion, I have an opinion. We disagree.No. The rules of civilized debate dictate that viewpoints be presented based on their inherent merit, each point offered with logical deductive evidence concerning its validity, NOT by denigration of the opposing viewpoint. Perhaps you're really not seeing how your comments are offensive and how the not so subtle barbs you employ tend to cloud any valid point you might be making.> See my other post to Dawn from Canada: this is fine,> it is your choice. But you will probably change MANY> times in your life, it is normal and OK to change!Not necessarily. Would it be "normal" or "ok" to tire of your mate every couple of years? To find your children tiresome? To feel the need to change addresses, hair color, jobs, religions, philosophy every year or two? Again, you're extrapolating your viewpoint to include everyone. Rather than just saying that FOR YOU, change is always peachy and fun you profer the agenda that if we were all just as creative and exciting as you, change would always be stimulating and fun for us too. I'm merely pointing out that that is an arrogant stance. I don't like radical changes in my life, but I surely don't begrudge you your interest in them or advocate that if you were only stable and true and commited enough you wouldn't like constant change either.> If in five years you still feel like you are already> at your "ultimate potential", then I will be> truely suprised. Perfection is generally an illusion> (see philosophy of Plato), and an opinion like yours> is often changed over the years.I've had the same long flowing hair for more than twenty years now. The only change has been its slow progression towards the floor. Is that long enough to qualify as comfortably satisfied with my choice? Changing it would not improve it for me, hence, my definition of it as just perfect, just the way I've always wanted it to be.> Again, see Plato. Perfection is an illusion. Five> years from now, you may tell yourself, "God, what> a silly thought I had that I could never be better> than I was!"Well, that might have applied to certain aspects of my beliefs when I was say, 15, but we're not talking about emotional or spiritual evolution here, we're talking about hair and maintaining the same external self image for a lifetime is not at all the same as stagnating on the intellectual or spiritual path of life.> To imagine yourself in a "perfect state" is> common, it is just that as time passes, your opinion> of perfection, and the context of that opinion, will> change. To keep up with reality, you will change too.Again, we're not talking about spirituality or striving to be a better person in life, we're talking about hair and the notion that there is nothing wrong with constancy. Are you rich? Because I would love to bet you a million dollars that in five or ten or twenty years my hair will still be exactly like it is right now (barring, of course, unforseen natural disaster beyond my control). I'm a guaranteed winner on that one.> The essence of any debate is to discuss the merits of> a position. It is now what you do to your head, but> what goes on inside your head, that I debate.> To imagine a state of "perfection" is> common, to not recognize its illusory nature is a> common mistake. You will change, it is impossible to> resist, because the context of your existance changes> and there is nothing that you can do about that.Again, we're not talking about spiritual or intellectual progression here, we're talking about hair and that, for me, has never and will never change. I think you're confusing the natural evolution and maturation of the spirit with outward physical image. I can grow as a person without having to cut my hair.> Then the real question becomes: will you go with the> change, or try to resist and get stuck in the past.> You mean that you wear the same jacket for years? Even> when it is out of style? You still have all of your> college clothes and high school clothes?Well, I did say all of my adult life, so I don't think high school really counts, but yes, I have jackets and other garments that are well over twenty years old and I do still wear them because they are timelessly stylish. Fine tailoring, quality and good taste are beyond the whims of fad and can be happily enjoyed for a lifetime.> As your body ages, it will become necessary to take> different vitamins. Likewise, pregnant women take> different vitamins, necessary for the baby's proper> nutrition.Spurious and argumentative. Quantities may differ but its the same general group of vitamins and supplements, A,E,C,B,etc.> He has never grown a beard, or shaved off a beard?> Never changed his hair at all? Never grown it longer,> or gotten a crew cut?A crew cut?! Major YUCK! My husband has the same adorable thick, full beard and ringlet curls as he's had for more than 20 years now, sorry to disappoint you. And I still find him as sexy and exciting as the day we met, just the way he is.> If your kids get to be teenagers, and still act like> 1st graders, would you think this normal? When they go> off to college, are you going to expect them to> "mature" and "grow up"? Maybe you> want them to be in their 40's and still living at> home?Now you're reaching. But you know what? I would be perfectly happy if, at 40, they are the same kind, generous, thoughful people that they are as first graders. They all have really long hair too, with no interest in changing it either. Again, can't you enjoy your preferences without attacking mine as somehow boring or unenlightened?> Same brand and kind EVERY day???Yea, honey frosted wheaties. Some people need their coffee, I need my honey frosted wheaties and juice. Boring huh?> Same color and style? Never any sport socks or knit> socks or wollen socks?> Your opinion. It may change over time.> Terrible to be boxed in like that :-) Really, I am a> scientist, I don't believe in horrorscopes and all> that.See, this is what I mean by disparaging remarks. You didn't say, "oh my, I would feel terribly boxed in by that", you said "oh how pitiful for you to be so pathetically boxed in like that." BTW, the first scientists were astrologers and stargazers and I'd be willing to bet you fit the general traits of your obviously stubborn sign as well, whether you believe in it or not.> This is my opinion, I will state it as such.Again, you don't just state your opinions, you cast aspersions on the opinions of others in the process. THATS what I'm taking issue with.> If you choose to be offended, that is your choice,> This is a discussion/debate, offered in a mood of open> thoughts and ideas.> If someone acts like they did in high school, wouldn't> you think them a little strage? If someone keeps the> same old hairstyle for years, I find this a little> strange.This is comparing apples and oranges. I like my same old hairstyle, yes, the one I began to cultivate as a teenager. And what if I was a kind, considerate, generous, intelligent sweetheart of a person in high school, why would I want to change that? Why couldn't I go through my entire life acting exactly that same sweet generous way?> Because in the end, IMO, there is only so much that> you can do until it become repetitive and dull.> Cutting one's hair is an expression of change, one of> the biggest that an indvidual can make. Why do you> think that so many people cut their hair for events> like new job, wedding, going off to college, etc. It> is an outward expression of an inner change, a way of> telling the world, "I am new and different."This is the same old argument, everybody does it so why can't you? Because, as Diane mentioned, radical alterations in outward appearance are often disappointing since they do nothing to alter the inner self and in fact are often used as a means to mask inner turmoil by projecting a "new and improved" exterior version of a person that doesn't really exist yet. Its like believing that if only you could have the perfect face or be the perfect weight or dress in perfect clothes you would find peace and happiness in your heart, but it doesn't work that way.> Just my opinion. Don't take it so personally.But you made it personal by referring to people in such negative terms.> Your opinion. It may change in time of your own free> will.Don't count on it.> Not at all. It is your opinion, not anything like the> truth.I didn't say it was my opinion, I said it was an example of how offensive words can often be.> Your opinion, I believe and accept it as your choice,> BUT I think that blanket statements are silly. Hell, I> may change my opion, but once you have realized that> the only constant is change, you kind of accept it.See, again, you're telling me that once I get a clue I will accept your, (in my opinion), flawed logic. If blanket statements are silly, then the notion that change is ALWAYS fun and productive falls into that category doesn't it?> Agreed. Just don't take any of this personally, I have> not singled out any individual for harassment at all,> that is not what this is about. This is an open> discussion forum.I'm not taking it personally, I'm pointing out that your words are perhaps more barbed than you realize and that you can express yourself without the underlying tone of contempt.Ok, this discussion has become what I would define as boring and that's all for me. It was just the offhanded contempt in your remarks which raised my ire and I felt a need to speak out. I don't condemn other peoples choices while I am expressing my own personal preferences and I would expect the same courtesy that's all.Very best wishes to all,Dawn
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Diane from Canada View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Diane from Canada Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2000 at 8:53pm
> Awww, what the heck. I kinda like Zorak, it has a kind> of spacy, futuristic sound.> See my post to Dave. I don't advocate constant change,> I simply state that when the time comes, don't be> afraid to make the change.> Yeah, I agree that too much change too fast can be> very distubing to some people...most people, in fact.> There is a lot to be said for long periods of> stability in one's life. But, the time to make a break> with the past will arrive at some point.> You are right, most will do what it takes to make it> work. Some do crater and burnout though.> I CAN accept that. I like long hair too. I love long> brunette hair with just a little bit of a wave in it,> healthy and shiny. Yum.> See my post to Dave. I can change the words I use> (without really changing my opinion). I will refrain> from using words that offend you.> No? It felt and looked pretty drastic to me. Granted> it was not flaming orange, but 1/4" is pretty> short, considering that it was to my shoulders when I> started on it. It left quite a pile of hair on the> bathroom floor.> Once I did get it shaved completely, but that was over> 10 years ago. And I did put some red dye in it once in> college, but that was over 20 years ago.> Oh, I have always said that it is their own choice. I> just find it, well, lets say kind of.....(cannot use> the "B" word here)...well, lets just say> that it is their choice and leave it at that, my> opinion doesn't count (but you already know what it is> anyway!).> Z.Hello Again:Look I have enjoyed discussing this with you. I never once said that your opinion doesn't count. That isn't the expression I want to leave with you. I am hoping that you can see other sides to the reason why some people prefer not to change and it doesn't mean it is boring.Yes I will agree that we should never say never because we change all the time within ourselves etc.When the change is to grow and become wiser than it is very positive.I just wanted to tell you that some of us are very committed to growing our hair. Like I mention before I use to be a short hair female and decided to grow my hair. Right now it is dark brown, thick, shiny and it reaches my waist and my goals are for it to reach my knees. Who knows maybe after I reach my goals I might cut it back to waist length or I might just stay with the final lenght.For me that is change. I never had very long hair . I tend to be like my Victorian greatmother who loves her long hair.That is all I was trying to say to you. I am hoping that next time you see someone that you didn't think they change try to see it in a diffirent light okay?Diane
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JenniferM View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JenniferM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2000 at 8:53pm
Zorak hee-hee (Like it! He's that guy on Cartoon Network, right?)I know what you mean about getting in a rut about your looks. I *have* to change my hair around ever once in awhile to keep from going crazy. I have long, naturally-curly hair which I wear natural most days, but there are time that I just *have* to straighten it! I'll go through a period of straight hair and then want my curly hair back. Same with wearing it up or down. I'll wear it up all day, and then at the end of the day I can't *wait* to let it down. Or, if I've worn it down all day, when I get home I *have* to pull it up. I must switch around with either scrunching it to get my natural spiral-curls or using hot rollers or curling iron to get swooping curls. Wearing claw clips, barrettes, scrunchies, snoods, etc.. There is so much fun to do with hair. (Did I mention that I color it red?!) Heck, I change my makeup look all the time too! Not everyone is like me (or *should* be, for that matter) ;-)
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Jade21 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jade21 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2000 at 8:53pm
Hi,Dawn!I have missed seeing your posts and am glad to see that you have returned.I just wanted to tell you that I have to agree with you that the thread of discussion with Lurker has little to do with hair and even "hair politics."As usual, your arguments are extemely well-reasoned and analytical. I agree that the tone of most of Lurker/Z'scomments have been rather snide and negative, and I wondered how he could not believe that the message wasn't coming across. Also, are these arguments really coming from a scientist? Mmmm...? But, then again, I am an Earth sign, like you, so maybe we just don't understand. [HaHa Big Time] As my friend Charles would say, who is 93, change is an evolutionary process. Even the stable times in most people's lives are subject to numerous changes, whether they are noticed or not.Happy Growing! [Your hair is gorgeous!]All the Best,Jade21> becoming "entrenched" in the idea of long> hair. If I were "entrenched" in the notion> that change is always good, I could never have the> kind of hair I desire, its a simple matter of> longevity of commitment.> Its been my experience that boredom is the end result> of being boring yourself, not something external that> affects you but an internal state of mind.> No. The rules of civilized debate dictate that> viewpoints be presented based on their inherent merit,> each point offered with logical deductive evidence> concerning its validity, NOT by denigration of the> opposing viewpoint. Perhaps you're really not seeing> how your comments are offensive and how the not so> subtle barbs you employ tend to cloud any valid point> you might be making.> Not necessarily. Would it be "normal" or> "ok" to tire of your mate every couple of> years? To find your children tiresome? To feel the> need to change addresses, hair color, jobs, religions,> philosophy every year or two? Again, you're> extrapolating your viewpoint to include everyone.> Rather than just saying that FOR YOU, change is always> peachy and fun you profer the agenda that if we were> all just as creative and exciting as you, change would> always be stimulating and fun for us too. I'm merely> pointing out that that is an arrogant stance. I don't> like radical changes in my life, but I surely don't> begrudge you your interest in them or advocate that if> you were only stable and true and commited enough you> wouldn't like constant change either.> I've had the same long flowing hair for more than> twenty years now. The only change has been its slow> progression towards the floor. Is that long enough to> qualify as comfortably satisfied with my choice?> Changing it would not improve it for me, hence, my> definition of it as just perfect, just the way I've> always wanted it to be.> Well, that might have applied to certain aspects of my> beliefs when I was say, 15, but we're not talking> about emotional or spiritual evolution here, we're> talking about hair and maintaining the same external> self image for a lifetime is not at all the same as> stagnating on the intellectual or spiritual path of> life.> Again, we're not talking about spirituality or> striving to be a better person in life, we're talking> about hair and the notion that there is nothing wrong> with constancy. Are you rich? Because I would love to> bet you a million dollars that in five or ten or> twenty years my hair will still be exactly like it is> right now (barring, of course, unforseen natural> disaster beyond my control). I'm a guaranteed winner> on that one.> Again, we're not talking about spiritual or> intellectual progression here, we're talking about> hair and that, for me, has never and will never> change. I think you're confusing the natural evolution> and maturation of the spirit with outward physical> image. I can grow as a person without having to cut my> hair.> Well, I did say all of my adult life, so I don't think> high school really counts, but yes, I have jackets and> other garments that are well over twenty years old and> I do still wear them because they are timelessly> stylish. Fine tailoring, quality and good taste are> beyond the whims of fad and can be happily enjoyed for> a lifetime.> Spurious and argumentative. Quantities may differ but> its the same general group of vitamins and> supplements, A,E,C,B,etc.> A crew cut?! Major YUCK! My husband has the same> adorable thick, full beard and ringlet curls as he's> had for more than 20 years now, sorry to disappoint> you. And I still find him as sexy and exciting as the> day we met, just the way he is.> Now you're reaching. But you know what? I would be> perfectly happy if, at 40, they are the same kind,> generous, thoughful people that they are as first> graders. They all have really long hair too, with no> interest in changing it either. Again, can't you enjoy> your preferences without attacking mine as somehow> boring or unenlightened?> Yea, honey frosted wheaties. Some people need their> coffee, I need my honey frosted wheaties and juice.> Boring huh?> See, this is what I mean by disparaging remarks. You> didn't say, "oh my, I would feel terribly boxed> in by that", you said "oh how pitiful for> you to be so pathetically boxed in like that."> BTW, the first scientists were astrologers and> stargazers and I'd be willing to bet you fit the> general traits of your obviously stubborn sign as> well, whether you believe in it or not.> Again, you don't just state your opinions, you cast> aspersions on the opinions of others in the process.> THATS what I'm taking issue with.> This is comparing apples and oranges. I like my same> old hairstyle, yes, the one I began to cultivate as a> teenager. And what if I was a kind, considerate,> generous, intelligent sweetheart of a person in high> school, why would I want to change that? Why couldn't> I go through my entire life acting exactly that same> sweet generous way?> This is the same old argument, everybody does it so> why can't you? Because, as Diane mentioned, radical> alterations in outward appearance are often> disappointing since they do nothing to alter the inner> self and in fact are often used as a means to mask> inner turmoil by projecting a "new and> improved" exterior version of a person that> doesn't really exist yet. Its like believing that if> only you could have the perfect face or be the perfect> weight or dress in perfect clothes you would find> peace and happiness in your heart, but it doesn't work> that way.> But you made it personal by referring to people in> such negative terms.> Don't count on it.> I didn't say it was my opinion, I said it was an> example of how offensive words can often be.> See, again, you're telling me that once I get a clue I> will accept your, (in my opinion), flawed logic. If> blanket statements are silly, then the notion that> change is ALWAYS fun and productive falls into that> category doesn't it?> I'm not taking it personally, I'm pointing out that> your words are perhaps more barbed than you realize> and that you can express yourself without the> underlying tone of contempt.> Ok, this discussion has become what I would define as> boring and that's all for me. It was just the> offhanded contempt in your remarks which raised my ire> and I felt a need to speak out. I don't condemn other> peoples choices while I am expressing my own personal> preferences and I would expect the same courtesy> that's all.> Very best wishes to all,> Dawn
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Zorak the Frisbee (used to be Lurker) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zorak the Frisbee (used to be Lurker) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2000 at 8:53pm
> To have hair to your knees, by definition, requires > becoming "entrenched" in the idea of long hair.Yeah, I guess it does!> If I were "entrenched" in the notion that change is always > good....I never said that is is ALWAYS good, just that it will happen, so when it does just accept it.> Not necessarily. Would it be "normal" or> "ok" to tire of your mate every couple of> years?Many do. I don't think is is abnormal at all to want something new. This is more a question of commitment and the vows you give when you get married. There is nothing wrong with tiring of your mate, it is just not a reason to cheat.> To find your children tiresome?I would never say "tiresome" but yes, if they continue to act like kids as they enter their adult lives I would worry about them. Likewise, I would imagine they would be quite different in their 40's than in their 20's.> To feel the need to change addresses, hair color, jobs,> religions, philosophy every year or two?Yes to all! I don't live in the same house that I did ten years ago, I have dyed my hair once, have changed jobs several times in the last 20 years, and my religion and philosophy have shifted dramatically in the last two years.>.....you profer the agenda that if we were> all just as creative and exciting as you, change would> always be stimulating and fun for us too.:-) Having fun in your life?? Getting bored?? Try something new for a change!!!> I don't like radical changes in my life.....> .....I've had the same long flowing hair for more than> twenty years now.....> ....we're talking about hair and that, for me, has never> and will never change......> .....I have jackets and other garments that are well over > twenty years old and I do still wear them> ....I like my same old hairstyle, yes, the one I began> to cultivate as a teenager.I won't say it but you know what I am thinking....afraid to change, perhaps???> .....we're talking about hair and maintaining the same> external self image for a lifetime is not at all the> same as stagnating on the intellectual or spiritual path> of life.Oh, but I would argue that is *absolutely* IS the same, when used in the context that you provide! Holding onto the same look for decades is a good indicator that you are fearful of change (in fact, you say as much above).Belief in the zodiac and such is spiritual and religous, and you believe that the sign that you were born under holds sway over ALL of your life, forever.You believe that because you were born under a sign that it makes you abhor change (you said it in an earlier post); and that ties your appearance and unwillingness to ever even think about the possibility of change to your spiitual/religous nature! Thus, your physical appearance is directly affected by your inner self!And, the fact that you have not changed your appeance in decades means that you have not changed internally!> I think you're confusing the natural evolution and> maturation of the spirit with outward physical image.> I can grow as a person without having to cut my hair.See argument directly above!> A crew cut?! Major YUCK!Is this an opinion? I have a crew cut, and you have said something that hurts my feelings, boo hoo hoo.> BTW, the first scientists were astrologers and stargazersYes, but the intelligent ones amongst them CAHNGED into astronomers! They did not LIVE IN THE PAST, the saw the light and evolved!> If blanket statements are silly, then the notion that> change is ALWAYS fun and productive falls into that> category doesn't it?I never said it is ALWAYS fun and productive, only that is it universal and that you cannot "hide" from it, so when it is time you should accept it.Z.
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Dawn from RareGems View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dawn from RareGems Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2000 at 8:54pm
Hi Jade!Thanks so much for your kind words about the hair. Its a very spiritual, very personal, very healing thing for me and I wouldn't ever give it up. I've been around, trying to keep up with all the wonderful new people here and on Hair Talk but real life has been getting in the way lately and I haven't had a lot of time to post, so thanks very much for the encouragement. I always enjoy reading your stuff as well.I'm going to just be thankful that my own sweet husband isn't of the same mind as Lurker and loves me for my old boring, frightened of change (HA!) stick in the mud self!Very best wishes to you and your hair quest as well!Dawn> Hi,Dawn!> I have missed seeing your posts and am glad to see> that you have returned.> I just wanted to tell you that I have to agree with> you that the thread of discussion with Lurker has> little to do with hair and even "hair> politics."> As usual, your arguments are extemely well-reasoned> and analytical. I agree that the tone of most of> Lurker/Z's> comments have been rather snide and negative, and I> wondered how he could not believe that the message> wasn't coming across. Also, are these arguments really> coming from a scientist? Mmmm...? But, then again, I> am an Earth sign, like you, so maybe we just don't> understand. [HaHa Big Time] As my friend Charles would> say, who is 93, change is an evolutionary process.> Even the stable times in most people's lives are> subject to numerous changes, whether they are noticed> or not.> Happy Growing! [Your hair is gorgeous!]> All the Best,> Jade21
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