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Dave as Defensive?

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Jade21 View Drop Down
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    Posted: January 11 2000 at 9:00pm
Hi!First, I just wanted to say, in response to JF, that I don't see Dave as defensive in any way. I think Dave is an extremely passionate, sensitive, intelligent and caring individual. He's no long hair fanatic! I could never see Dave telling me to keep my hair at all costs if I was considering cutting it off. As such, I would readily ask him such a question if the issue ever arose.JF readily admits that long-haired men encounter many more negative responses than positive ones. I believe that Dave's personal experiences are reflected in his posts on various issues. When I first came to Hair Boutique, I had never seen a man with hair as long and profuse as Dave's. I was definitely blown away:) Dave's hair is not long. It is ultra-long. I have seen the abuse and comments many men take just for having hair below the collar and at shoulder-length. One of the usual comments made, which I have heard over and over, is that it is somehow feminine for a man to have longer hair. Personally, I have always felt that if at least part of a woman's fertility is viewed as being keyed to her hair, part of a man's virility is tied to the same:) Anyway, I think, as a part of having ultra-long hair, a man should be able to articulate positions well which I think Dave does. It's nice to hear what a man thinks about longer hair and ancillary issues in relation to his own life.Bye for now,Jade21
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Diane from Canada View Drop Down
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> Hi!> First, I just wanted to say, in response to JF, that I> don't see Dave as defensive in any way. I think Dave> is an extremely passionate, sensitive, intelligent and> caring individual. He's no long hair fanatic! I could> never see Dave telling me to keep my hair at all costs> if I was considering cutting it off. As such, I would> readily ask him such a question if the issue ever> arose.>I have to agree with you Jade 21. You have describe Dave perfectly. He has been my personal friend for a year now and he is always very kind and considerate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JerkyFlea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2000 at 9:00pm
Ok, before I get beat up too much for calling Dave defensive, let me clarify a couple of things:1) I probably misused "defensive" and should have said "more sensitive", which was actually my point. I was thinking that since Dave probably has to deal with more criticism and unwanted comments than the typical long haired female on a daily basis, that he would automatically be quicker to react to someone criticizing long hair on the board. I was just trying to understand why his responses seem more vehement and prevelant that others on the same subject. I still think that has a lot to do with it. Heck, Dave didn't even really dispute it in his response to me in the other thread...though he'll probably do it now. :)2) I don't have anything against Dave personally and wasn't questioning the depth of his feelings on the subject matter. I was just trying to understand from whence he was coming. I'm sure Dave's a swell guy in real life...even if he does have that long, hippie-lookin' hair. =D***ATTENTION: The last sentence of the above paragraph was a joke (i.e., sarcasm) and in no way intends any disrespect to Dave, his hair, or the participants in the '60s counter-culture movement, popularly known as "Hippies". Thank you.By the way, lest anyone get the wrong idea, I don't have anything against long hair. Mrs. Flea has hair almost 3/4 of the way down her back and I've talked her out of cutting it on more than one occasion. Doesn't mean I wouldn't like it she did cut it (I've cut it to a bob for her several times), but I think long hair looks better on her...as does she. I won't get off on the tangent of what hairstyles look better on who, but I did want to point out that I am aware of at least some of the feedback women with long hair get from "helpful" strangers. I just don't see the negative comments as much as folks here do.As usual,JerkyFleaRelated Link:JerkyFlea's Celebrity Hair Spray
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> Ok, before I get beat up too much for calling Dave> defensive, let me clarify a couple of things:> 1) I probably misused "defensive" and should> have said "more sensitive", which was> actually my point. I was thinking that since Dave> probably has to deal with more criticism and unwanted> comments than the typical long haired female on a> daily basis, that he would automatically be quicker to> react to someone criticizing long hair on the board. I> was just trying to understand why his responses seem> more vehement and prevelant that others on the same> subject. I still think that has a lot to do with it.> Heck, Dave didn't even really dispute it in his> response to me in the other thread...though he'll> probably do it now. :)Yaaaaaaawwwwwwn... what? Oh.sniff sniff... do I smell bait here?And so if I respond in any way then will you interpret it as "dispute?"Seems as though you would put words into my mouth and then bind it shut.No thank you for that bargain, Mr. JerkyFlea.I speak against these injustices not only because of my own experiences,but also because I have seen the same and similar ones directed againstwomen (for decades), and have experienced and seen the detrimental affectsuch negativity has had on the psyches of myself and others.I like long hair, and I have long hair. So also, some women like longhair, and have long hair. Why should anybody in the world castdispersion on that preference and that choice, when having long haircauses absolutely no harm to anybody?> 2) I don't have anything against Dave personally and> wasn't questioning the depth of his feelings on the> subject matter. I was just trying to understand from> whence he was coming. I'm sure Dave's a swell guy in> real life...even if he does have that long,> hippie-lookin' hair. =D> ***ATTENTION: The last sentence of the above paragraph> was a joke (i.e., sarcasm) and in no way intends any> disrespect to Dave, his hair, or the participants in> the '60s counter-culture movement, popularly known as> "Hippies". Thank you.I believe you that you say you are joking, but your joke absolutely doesrepresent a display of disrespect to me. Merriam-Webster defines "hippie"as a "person who rejects the mores of established society (as by dressingunconventionally or favoring communal living)... a long-haired unconventionallydressed young person." I have no qualms with a person who chooses any orall of the aforementioned characteristics, yet the only characteristicI might share with the definition is my long hair -- and I say "might"because I don't believe that my hair much resembles that of most long-hairedmen back then. Certainly, (and unfortunately, in a general sense), the wordstill carries some negative connotations within "established society" today.I just don't see the connection between who I am, and the term you chose toapply to me -- even if it was intended by you to be taken in a joking manner.Oh yes, I very much have a sense of humor -- but I also have a sense forwhen -- and how -- to apply it.> I did want to point out that I am aware of> at least some of the feedback women with long hair get> from "helpful" strangers. I just don't see> the negative comments as much as folks here do.Well, welcome to a discussion forum where, among other things, thosewho have been criticized have the opportunity to air and share theirexperiences. Might you think it a safe bet that other newcomers (withlong hair) to Hair Politics might also be able to share the same orsimilar types of experiences as have been expressed thus far?Dave
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> Hi!> First, I just wanted to say, in response to JF, that I> don't see Dave as defensive in any way. I think Dave> is an extremely passionate, sensitive, intelligent and> caring individual. He's no long hair fanatic! I could> never see Dave telling me to keep my hair at all costs> if I was considering cutting it off. As such, I would> readily ask him such a question if the issue ever> arose.> JF readily admits that long-haired men encounter many> more negative responses than positive ones. I believe> that Dave's personal experiences are reflected in his> posts on various issues. When I first came to Hair> Boutique, I had never seen a man with hair as long and> profuse as Dave's. I was definitely blown away:)> Dave's hair is not long. It is ultra-long. I have seen> the abuse and comments many men take just for having> hair below the collar and at shoulder-length. One of> the usual comments made, which I have heard over and> over, is that it is somehow feminine for a man to have> longer hair. Personally, I have always felt that if at> least part of a woman's fertility is viewed as being> keyed to her hair, part of a man's virility is tied to> the same:) Anyway, I think, as a part of having> ultra-long hair, a man should be able to articulate> positions well which I think Dave does. It's nice to> hear what a man thinks about longer hair and ancillary> issues in relation to his own life.> Bye for now,> Jade21Thank you, Jade, for your extraordinarily kind words. I am deeply touched, and it sounds as if you see me the way I see myself -- or at least the way I try to be. Of course, that's part of being sensitive -- being aware of how one's own self is being perceived by others.I very definitely see a strong connection between the health and length of a woman's hair, and her virility. It's a sign of health, not only physical, but emotional as well.Take care,Dave
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Thank you, Diane. I always try to be kind and considerate,but I'm far from perfect.Take care,Dave
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Dave,You got me. I give. Send in the punting team. Why? Well...> Yaaaaaaawwwwwwn... what? Oh.> sniff sniff... do I smell bait here?> And so if I respond in any way then will you interpret> it as "dispute?"> Seems as though you would put words into my mouth and> then bind it shut.> No thank you for that bargain, Mr. JerkyFlea.Was doing nothing of the sort. In fact given what you had posted below when I said virtually the same thing implied to me that you saw my point. Thus, I was saying that you didn't really dispute it before, but with my luck you'd probably dispute it here. Misinterpreted joke #1.> Why should anybody in the> world cast> dispersion on that preference and that choice, when> having long hair> causes absolutely no harm to anybody?Nor does piercing your tongue, but people will comment on that too. In a perfect world, everyone accepts everyone as they are. This isn't it. However, it never helps things to go out of your way to look for slights. Read back through my posts - have I ever offered one detrimental comment against your or anyone else's choice for long hair?> I just don't see the connection between who I am, and> the term you chose to> apply to me -- even if it was intended by you to be> taken in a joking manner.> Oh yes, I very much have a sense of humor -- but I> also have a sense for> when -- and how -- to apply it.Completely innocent comment, Dave. Thought from the last couple of exchanges we had, you recognized that we weren't that far apart on our opinions on most parts of this discussion, yet you felt the need to look for an insult, though I went out of my way to show that it wasn't one. This would be misinterpreted joke #2.> Well, welcome to a discussion forum where, among other> things, those> who have been criticized have the opportunity to air> and share their> experiences.Golly, a sarcastic remark. I guess I should be offended since I've just been blatantly patronized, but instead it just makes me tired. Nothing more exhausting than navigating a PC minefield for an extended period of time, especially when folks keep dropping new ones in front of you just when you thought you made it out.> Might you think it a safe bet that other> newcomers (with> long hair) to Hair Politics might also be able to> share the same or> similar types of experiences as have been expressed> thus far?More power to 'em and let the sharing begin. That's the slant of the board anyway. Just don't be so shocked when the few folks here that think there is more than one hairstyle don't always understand.Before I go, one more thing. The reason I started contributing in this particular forum to begin with was because though I knew the board had a pro-long hair slant, I didn't understand why anyone who said maybe changing your hairstyle periodically, while not for everyone, was a natural thing to do, was mercilessly attacked as an insensitive swine intent on troding upon the personal freedoms of long haired folks. Obviously, from my column, I agree with the concept that not every style, be it long or short, looks good on every person and, thus, thought I'd toss my two cents in on that side of the debate. Not that I don't understand and appreciate the long hair side, I just agree more with the other.So, since we DO seem to keep debating the same aspects of this subject, I think I'll drop out of it for a while. Not playing martyr, just tired of posting similar things many times and having them misintrepreted in new and different ways each time.I need to work on my next opinionated column, anyway. :)As usual,JerkyFleaRelated Link:JerkyFlea's Celebrity Hair Spray
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Diane from Canada View Drop Down
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really most of you with super long hair are, Dave was so closeminded that he didn't see how long hair really does drag faces down sometimes. i used to have hair to my waist and I was also 80 pounds overweight, the hair was the only thing I could contorl in my life and i didn't want to give it up, but i lost 70 pounds and i cut my hair to just below my shoulders and it's perfect!!!!! the only people who can say they arent' using long hair as security are the ones who cut it short bu t then let it grow back again, when we're in hte middle of the situation, we can't see that clearly until we're out of it. just my $0.02, and now I'm back to lurking mode.
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Diane from Canada View Drop Down
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I am wondering how old you were when you did all this? I made a huge change at the age of 30. Threw out my wardrobe, lost some weight .Well since none of us are in the profession of pyschology we can't really say who is really right on the security issue. I do know there are two pyschologist that visit the hair boutique and both of them are not participating so I gathered that they might think this is stupid debate about security. There is no way to prove if it correct or not is there?
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JerkyFlea,I will admit that perhaps I was a bit overly sensitive when I repliedyesterday. It sometimes takes me a while to "warm up" to some people,especially if we've gotten off to a "rough start." In such cases, Itry to proceed slowly and with caution (and hope for the same inreturn). Perhaps at some time in the future I might have betterappreciated your joking around.When I said "Why should anybody in the world cast dispersion on thatpreference and that choice, when having long hair causes absolutely noharm to anybody?" it was a general lament and not directed at you.> Nor does piercing your tongue, but people will comment on that too.> In a perfect world, everyone accepts everyone as they are. This isn't> it. However, it never helps things to go out of your way to look for> slights.I agree that you have not offered detrimental comments to anybody onthe board regarding their hair choices.> Thought from the last couple of exchanges we had, you recognized that> we weren't that far apart on our opinions on most parts of this> discussion, yet you felt the need to look for an insult,I didn't feel a need to look for an insult, I just perceived that Iwas being insulted. I understand it wasn't your intent to be seen thatway but that's how I felt based on what you said. And as I said a fewparagraphs above, I have to know somebody very well before I readilyaccept verbal slaps in good fun.> That's the slant of the board anyway. Just don't be so shocked when> the few folks here that think there is more than one hairstyle don't> always understand.That's fine. If somebody doesn't understand something they are alwayswelcome to ask. And I know that there are many hairstyles. Not allsubject threads have been about long hair. Some have been about shorthair, too. I have absolutely no problem with that, or any diversityof opinion on the subject of hair being discussed on this board.> I didn't understand why anyone who said maybe changing your hairstyle> periodically, while not for everyone, was a natural thing to do, was mercilessly> attacked as an insensitive swine intent on troding upon the personal freedoms> of long haired folks.The reaction was based on the approach of a particular name-morphingindividual whose general approach to the topic was extraordinarilyhostile, rude, and insulting. Had somebody broached the subject ina very different way, we would probably have seen a much differentseries of responses.> Obviously, from my column, I agree with the concept that not every> style, be it long or short, looks good on every person and, thus,> thought I'd toss my two cents in on that side of the debate. Not that> I don't understand and appreciate the long hair side, I just agree> more with the other.So you appreciate short hair more than long, that's okay. See? Noflame.> So, since we DO seem to keep debating the same aspects of this> subjectIt depends in part on how the subject is broached, whatever subjectit is.Peace.Dave
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> really most of you with super long hair are, Dave was> so closeminded that he didn't see how long hair really> does drag faces down sometimes.This is laughable. On the contrary, I have opened my mind to try to understand the explanations given. I have tried very hard to understand the concept. Even though I still don't understand it I am still open to additional explanations.A failure to understand an explanation does not imply closed-mindedness.Dave
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Clare View Drop Down
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Here is my thought on the security/insecurity issue that I have been reading about. Based on the assumption that someone may have long hair due to insecurity, which is something I have been reading, well, I have to say, "So what." There are certainly far worse things that can happen, and I know that everyone had insecurities of some kind, so if someone's insecurity is being manifested in them growing long hair, is it hurting anyone??I also do not believe that it is a given that if somebody cuts their hair and then decides to grow it back, that it is a sign of security. Maybe from my perspective, that is a sign of insecurity, but even if that is true, again, so what. I guess my point is that everyone has to do what makes them feel happy, and sometimes even comfortable, in this rather difficult world that we live in. Everyone has insecurities they have to cope with. Even if having long hair really is a sign of insecurity, well, if that's how that person has chosen to cope with this entity we call life, so be it.Regards,Clare
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Hello Clare,I had largely avoided the topic of "hair length and insecurity," but something you said got me to thinking about the issue.I'll be brief: A person's hair length is not a reliable indicator of said person's self-confidence.It could *possibly* be said that a short-haired person who likes long hair but is afraid to grow it long due to the many societal pressures favoring short hair is insecure.Certainly, it does take some amount of self-confidence to stick to a decision to grow one's hair long (if one starts with short hair).If a person has short hair and is happy with it, or if a person has long hair and is happy with it, then neither choice indicates "insecurity" about their hair length choice. On the contrary, their choice to wear it the way they like it can be seen as indicative of self-confidence.Food for thought.Dave
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Well....I think everybody feels more secure in the hairstyle that she perceives looks best on her. I have nightmares about getting my hair cut off, not because short hair is bad in and of itself, but because I know I look awful in it, I hate looking awful, and the process of growing it back is agony. When my hair is short I feel unfeminine, unattractive, and exposed.So, yes, you could say that my longer hair makes me feel secure, the same way that wearing the perfect outfit for a particular occasion does. But isn't this healthy and normal? I mean, who goes to her hairdresser and says, "Find the LEAST flattering look you can for my face shape. I want to explore my reactions to public humiliation. I want men to ignore me, and I want to cringe every time I look in the mirror."Do I directly associate long hair with beauty? No. I know women prettier than I am with much shorter hair. I also know a lot of women with long hair who don't look good at all.Some women won't be seen without their make-up. Some would never be caught dead in sweatpants. I'll go to the supermarket with a naked face and paint-stained sweats, but I won't cut my hair above the shoulders. Get it?Ally ;)
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You know, when reading your post, I kind of felt like it was my post with your name on it -- you read my mind precisely!> I think everybody feels more secure in the hairstyle> that she perceives looks best on her.Yes -- absolutely! It's interesting that you use the word "perceive." I'm personally having a bit of a problem. I recently cut my long hair short and am growing it back because I really dislike the short hair. However, as it's gotten a slight bit longer (just over a half an inch growth), I'm getting more compliments on it. Now, most people say they really prefer the shorter hair on me. But *I* don't. It's very confusing because I've always had a sense of style and taste, yet in this particular situation, I'm at odds with opinions of those whom I admire and respect. I don't like it.I have> nightmares about getting my hair cut off, not because> short hair is bad in and of itself, but because I know> I look awful in it, I hate looking awful, and the> process of growing it back is agony. When my hair is> short I feel unfeminine, unattractive, and exposed.I was discussing this with a friend, and he said that the "exposed" feeling is why longer hair is sometimes considered a security blanket. I will definitely admit that I feel more vulnerable in the short hair. And I'll also be honest -- sometimes I like that feeling. But I wish I could get that feeling without the look! I wholeheartedly agree that I also feel unfeminine and unattractive with short hair, even though I've been told I'm not. Isn't it odd how perceptions of ourselves are often quite different from those around us? Interestingly enough I've had friends who were a bit disgusted that they were having "bad hair days" yet I didn't notice until they told me! Yet I've had bad hair days myself and know exactly how they feel. Therefore, how we feel we look to others is often different from how we actually appear to others. That's kind of interesting to know...> I know women prettier than I am with much shorter hair.> I also know a lot of women with long hair who don't> look good at all.Yes! Although I *generally* prefer longer hair on women, there are some women who truly look their best in short hair.> Some women won't be seen without their make-up. Some> would never be caught dead in sweatpants. I'll go to> the supermarket with a naked face and paint-stained> sweats, but I won't cut my hair above the shoulders.> Get it?As a matter of fact, I do, madame. :-) Actually, I really don't want super long hair. I am very active and athletic, and it just wouldn't go with my lifestyle. But I think the shortest I'd want it is just a "hair" below shoulder length. That way, there wouldn't be a ton of hair with which to deal, yet it would still be on the longer hair, and I could easily put it up.Hey, good post, Ally!
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I'll be the first to admit that my long hair is a "security blanket" for me. I won't try to deny it! I've even told my hairstylists (in the past) the same thing. I feel I look terrible when I have my hair pulled back (or up), despite opposite protests of others. That's just me, that's all.
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Ahhhh, come on now, don't be a baby. I've read your column and whatever you may be, one thing you're not is timid. The same issues get discussed all the time because the essential point is overlooked each and every time, that being that there is no long vs short agenda, no "pro" anything slant, what there is, is people attempting to illustrate that it is possible to hold a point of view without alternately disparaging and demeaning the other viewpoint and depicting its proponents as mentally deficient.> Before I go, one more thing. The reason I started> contributing in this particular forum to begin with> was because though I knew the board had a pro-long> hair slant,As I said, I don't think its pro anything but respect for others, whatever their choices.>I didn't understand why anyone who said> maybe changing your hairstyle periodically, while not> for everyone, was a natural thing to do, was> mercilessly attacked as an insensitive swine intent on> troding upon the personal freedoms of long haired> folks.Ok, you're not really serious here are you? Because in the posts that started this little episode, there were no maybes, or caveats about change not being for everyone, or any other concessions to polite discourse, there was only condescencion and not so subtle condemnation and some poor innocent was not "mercilessly attacked" for no good reason, and it was not imagined that those of a long haired persuasion were impinged upon. Now, you're an intelligent guy, are you telling me you can't see the difference between this:........"You know, I love to change my hair, cut it, grow it out, style it, I enjoy the variety and spice it adds to my life, its kind of exciting and fun and I love it when my wife goes in for a really dramatic new do, anyone agree?"and this:......." I love changing my hair and I enjoyed when my wife cut hers really short for a dramatic new look plus I think people who keep the same hair for too long should get a life and mix it up, the change will do them good, they have an insecurity complex and are just afraid to give in and admit that they'll be forced to change someday whether they like it or not."Surely you can see how one would engender nothing but pleasant and supportive comments from like minded individuals while the other might tend to piss some people off?This, and only this, is what the whole discussion was about. Its about respect. The kind that some people give as a matter of course, and the kind that others can't seem to give up to save themselves.Now, if you want to run away rather than try and understand this premise, ok, that's your perogative, but don't you think it might be more productive to let go of those preconceived notions about long vs short and see what we're really talking about?> Not that I> don't understand and appreciate the long hair side,Well, I don't know if you've ever actually had long hair, and if not, I'm not entirely convinced that you can truly understand, but lets just move on.> So, since we DO seem to keep debating the same aspects> of this subject, I think I'll drop out of it for a> while.And again, I just have to point out that its not a long vs short thing, the adversarial stance only ever comes from the "short" side you'll notice, so your entire take on the subject is slanted already and you're not really hearing what people are saying. If you were, maybe it wouldn't seem so boring.Very best wishes to all,Dawn
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JerkyFlea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2000 at 9:02pm
Fascinating. I post a response to Dawn a few threads down and Dave responds but Dawn doesn't. And now in my discussion with Dave, Dawn decides to respond. But that's neither here nor there. Anyway, the reason I'm even responding to this is because being the logical person I am, I have a problem with folks that distort the fact to their own agenda. What am I talking about? Well, I'll get to that, but first...> Ahhhh, come on now, don't be a baby. I've read your> column and whatever you may be, one thing you're not> is timid.A baby? Gosh, but that hurts. An no, I'm not timid, just withdrawing from a discussion that, at least in my opinion, has gotten frustratingly repetitive, with extreme members of both sides refusing (except in very rare instances) to give any ground.> The same issues get discussed all the time> because the essential point is overlooked each and> every time, that being that there is no long vs short> agenda, no "pro" anything slant, ...Really? Whe I spoke of the forum, I was referring to the entire series of boards. The pro-long hair angle I spoke of is from the posts that usually follow any poster (usually female) who places a message that they have long hair, but are thinking of cutting it for one reason or another. The majority of the posts following will indicate she should think long and hard about this decision because she'll probably regret cutting it if she decides to do it.In fact there is a thread on Hair Talk like this right now right here. Several folks told the mom to carefully weigh the decision, because she may regret it, as they did, when she cuts it. Her response, I think, demonstrates that even a newbie recognizes the slant of the boards:"To be really honest, I've read some of the posts on here and I know some of you think a haircut is a big deal, but it wasn't that big of a deal to me."> ...what there> is, is people attempting to illustrate that it is> possible to hold a point of view without alternately> disparaging and demeaning the other viewpoint and> depicting its proponents as mentally deficient.> As I said, I don't think its pro anything but respect> for others, whatever their choices.Now, Dawn, before one makes such a sweeping statement one should remember what she has written. From your response to Jena on getting her extensions in the "insecurity" thread below:"...if you want to grow up as a person and perhaps understand that one can indeed, with time, possess the outer countenance that adequately portrays the inner self, you should suck it up and accept what you've done and let your hair grow out in its own good time. Hair extensions are a cheaters way out and will teach you nothing about patience and fortitude. If you really want to be a longhair, you have to pay the price, that being cultivating inner strength until the outside catches up to the inside and the facade matches the heart. There really is no other way." "Suck it up"? "Cheater's way out"? "Pay the price"? My, but doesn't that seem understanding and respectful of the choices of others. I guess poor Jena needs to mail her long hair membership card back in before it is forcebly taken from her.> Ok, you're not really serious here are you? Because in> the posts that started this little episode, there were> no maybes, or caveats about change not being for> everyone, or any other concessions to polite> discourse, there was only condescencion and not so> subtle condemnation and some poor innocent was not> "mercilessly attacked" for no good reason,> and it was not imagined that those of a long haired> persuasion were impinged upon. Now, you're an> intelligent guy, are you telling me you can't see the> difference between this:........> "You know, I love to change my hair, cut it, grow> it out, style it, I enjoy the variety and spice it> adds to my life, its kind of exciting and fun and I> love it when my wife goes in for a really dramatic new> do, anyone agree?"> and this:.......> " I love changing my hair and I enjoyed when my> wife cut hers really short for a dramatic new look> plus I think people who keep the same hair for too> long should get a life and mix it up, the change will> do them good, they have an insecurity complex and are> just afraid to give in and admit that they'll be> forced to change someday whether they like it or> not."> Surely you can see how one would engender nothing but> pleasant and supportive comments from like minded> individuals while the other might tend to piss some> people off?Of course I could. However, I can equally see the following raising the dander of those who think change is O.K.:"I love my hair long and don't plan to cut. Ever. Future events are irrelevant. I would sooner abandon my family and religious faith before letting scissors near my hair. Those that think that they may possibly cut their hair based on changing circumstances are irresponsible and immature, with no firm system of beliefs or convictions."Who would say such a thing? Well, Dawn, that would be you in multiple posts. And just in case you accuse me of paraphrasing or generalizing, let me quote you from the same thread as before when you responded to Jena who said:> Your statement right here is where people get the> "insecurity" idea. Would a person who is> totally secure in himself not say, "I love my> long hair and have no desire to cut it now. I don't> see my opinion changing in the near future, but who> knows? Maybe one day I will, but if I change, I change> because I want to do so, not from any outside> presure."To me, the wishy washy, maybe I will, maybe I won't, who knows what I might do statements you profer as preferrable to a staunt, confident NEVER, are the very essence of insecurity, not the other way around. The definition of insecure is "not confident, filled with anxieties, not firm or dependable, unreliable" so how can someone who has held firm to a goal, a passion, an ideal for more than two decades ever be considered insecure? You're confused and mistaken about the depth of character it takes to sustain such reliable, dependable convictions, I think.Not doubting your convictions, but just because Jena thinks change is OK and has decided to not let her hair become the defining characteristic of her personality and life does not make her "wishy washy".And by the way, would you feel less confident and be filled with anxiety if you cut your hair? Gotta be careful when you pull out those Webster's definitions to prove your point.> This, and only this, is what the whole discussion was> about. Its about respect. The kind that some people> give as a matter of course, and the kind that others> can't seem to give up to save themselves.Very true. I respect your choice, as well as Dave's and others. You, however, seem to have trouble respecting Jena's or mine. If someone says they don't like your hair and you should cut it, to be fair, you have to respect their opinion just as much as those who love your hair as it is.But you can't do that can you? At least not according to the evidence provided by you posts. Those questioning your choice of keeping your hair long and insisting you'll never cut it are treated to a verbal assault taking the stance of relating a haircut to family abandonment and agnosticism. I know that you indicated you used those examples because they demonstrate other things in your life that won't change, but be aware of how extreme using such examples appeares. Before you accuse one side of blind inflexibility, make sure you evaluate your own argument.> Now, if you want to run away rather than try and> understand this premise, ok, that's your perogative,> but don't you think it might be more productive to let> go of those preconceived notions about long vs short> and see what we're really talking about?I know exactly what you are talking about. You just need to admit that this isn't about hair. It's about freedom of choice. You're free to leave you hair long. Jena's free to cut hers. And, for better or worse, people are free to give their opinion on both. If that isn't what this board is about and it was intended as a long hair support group, then I probably shouldn't have wandered by in the first place.Oh, and there is a difference between running away and knowing when it is to time to gracefully extricate myself from a situation.> Well, I don't know if you've ever actually had long> hair, and if not, I'm not entirely convinced that you> can truly understand, but lets just move on.Nope, don't have long hair. Don't know anyone personally with the Crystal Gayle length tresses that you and others on this board sport. However, Mrs. Flea has hair 3/4 of the way down her back and is probably going to grow it to her waist and I know/have known many women with long hair up to waist length. So, I'm not completely oblivious to your situation, which I've explained in excrutiating detail several times now and have no desire to explain again.Which is part of the reason that I'm bailing out on this discussion.> And again, I just have to point out that its not a> long vs short thing, the adversarial stance only ever> comes from the "short" side you'll notice,> so your entire take on the subject is slanted already> and you're not really hearing what people are saying.> If you were, maybe it wouldn't seem so boring.Oh, I'm hearing folks and I'm admittedly somewhat slanted, though I see both sides. As I've said multiple times before, I believe that not every hairstyle looks good on every person. If I met you in person Dawn, I may very well think you had the most beautiful hair known to man. That doesn't necessarily mean, however, that the hairstyle is flattering to you. A subtle, yet important difference.Oh, and why do I now find this boring and repetitive? Because I could write your response to this post before you even write it. :)Going back to work on the next opinionated column,JerkyFleaRelated Link:JerkyFlea's Celebrity Hair Spray
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dawn from RareGems Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2000 at 9:02pm
> Fascinating. I post a response to Dawn a few threads> down and Dave responds but Dawn doesn't. And now in my> discussion with Dave, Dawn decides to respond. But> that's neither here nor there. Anyway, the reason I'm> even responding to this is because being the logical> person I am, I have a problem with folks that distort> the fact to their own agenda. What am I talking about?> Well, I'll get to that, but first...I'm sorry, I didn't get the Netiquette memo indicating that these were private conversations only open to responses from the person being specifically addressed.Logical? Well, I won't touch that with a ten foot pole.> A baby? Gosh, but that hurts. An no, I'm not timid,> just withdrawing from a discussion that, at least in> my opinion, has gotten frustratingly repetitive, with> extreme members of both sides refusing (except in very> rare instances) to give any ground.And I assume you're including yourself in that description?> Really? Whe I spoke of the forum, I was referring to> the entire series of boards. The pro-long hair angle I> spoke of is from the posts that usually follow any> poster (usually female) who places a message that they> have long hair, but are thinking of cutting it for one> reason or another. The majority of the posts following> will indicate she should think long and hard about> this decision because she'll probably regret cutting> it if she decides to do it.> In fact there is a thread on Hair Talk like this right> now right here . Several folks told the mom to> carefully weigh the decision, because she may regret> it, as they did, when she cuts it. Her response, I> think, demonstrates that even a newbie recognizes the> slant of the boards:See, this is my very point. A woman comes on and asks if anyone thinks she should succumb to the conventional notion that being a new mom means she should cut her hair. Several women respond with very personal and sincere anecdotes about how they felt when they followed this particular bit of social dogma indicating that they were not pleased with the results and you interpret this as some dark conspiracy on the part of long hair lovers to spread their agenda? You're kidding right? Has it occurred to you that perhaps they were just being kind and trying to help someone else avoid the disappointment they themselves felt? Though the original poster didn't follow their advice, as is her perogative, I doubt they were part of some "pro long hair" society seeking to recruit new members to their ranks. So you view any honest sharing of personal experiences as merely subterfuge to solicit converts to an "agenda"?> "To be really honest, I've read some of the> posts on here and I know some of you think a haircut> is a big deal, but it wasn't that big of a deal to> me."Then why was she writing to ask for advice in the first place if cutting it was no big deal?> Now, Dawn, before one makes such a sweeping statement> one should remember what she has written. From your> response to Jena on getting her extensions in the> "insecurity" thread below:> "...if you want to grow up as a person and> perhaps understand that one can indeed, with time,> possess the outer countenance that adequately portrays> the inner self, you should suck it up and accept what> you've done and let your hair grow out in its own good> time. Hair extensions are a cheaters way out and will> teach you nothing about patience and fortitude. If you> really want to be a longhair, you have to pay the> price, that being cultivating inner strength until the> outside catches up to the inside and the facade> matches the heart. There really is no other way."> "Suck it up"? "Cheater's way out"?> "Pay the price"? My, but doesn't that seem> understanding and respectful of the choices of others.> I guess poor Jena needs to mail her long hair> membership card back in before it is forcebly taken> from her.Seems to me she willingly relinquished any claim to the long hair club. And hair extensions are cheating. And if you make a mistake, you should just accept the consequences and move on. Long hair does exact a price, the cultivation of patience being just one aspect.> Of course I could. However, I can equally see the> following raising the dander of those who think change> is O.K.:> "I love my hair long and don't plan to cut. Ever.> Future events are irrelevant. I would sooner abandon> my family and religious faith before letting scissors> near my hair. Those that think that they may possibly> cut their hair based on changing circumstances are> irresponsible and immature, with no firm system of> beliefs or convictions."Whose twisting words to suit their own agenda? As I said before, you're not reading what people are saying, you're hearing only what you want to hear as evidenced by the fact that you have missed the essence and spirit of my posts by a frightening wide margin.> Who would say such a thing? Well, Dawn, that would be> you in multiple posts. And just in case you accuse me> of paraphrasing or generalizing, let me quote you from> the same thread as before when you responded to Jena> who said:> > Your statement right here is where people get> the> To me, the wishy washy, maybe I will, maybe I won't,> who knows what I might do statements you profer as> preferrable to a staunt, confident NEVER, are the very> essence of insecurity, not the other way around. The> definition of insecure is "not confident, filled> with anxieties, not firm or dependable,> unreliable" so how can someone who has held firm> to a goal, a passion, an ideal for more than two> decades ever be considered insecure? You're confused> and mistaken about the depth of character it takes to> sustain such reliable, dependable convictions, I> think.> Not doubting your convictions, but just because Jena> thinks change is OK and has decided to not let her> hair become the defining characteristic of her> personality and life does not make her "wishy> washy".I said her proferred statement was "wishy washy" not her. See how important it is to read whats written not what you infer?> And by the way, would you feel less confident and be> filled with anxiety if you cut your hair? Gotta be> careful when you pull out those Webster's definitions> to prove your point.See, this is what I mean about reading peoples words insightfully. Do you have the impression that it would be possible for any of life's events to shake my confidence or "fill me with anxiety"? I can assure you life has slapped me around plenty and I'm way beyond such egocentrism.> Very true. I respect your choice, as well as Dave's> and others. You, however, seem to have trouble> respecting Jena's or mine. If someone says they don't> like your hair and you should cut it, to be fair, you> have to respect their opinion just as much as those> who love your hair as it is.Depending on how they present that opinion. Once you get rude, the gloves are off.> But you can't do that can you? At least not according> to the evidence provided by you posts. Those> questioning your choice of keeping your hair long and> insisting you'll never cut it are treated to a verbal> assault taking the stance of relating a haircut to> family abandonment and agnosticism. I know that you> indicated you used those examples because they> demonstrate other things in your life that won't> change, but be aware of how extreme using such> examples appeares. Before you accuse one side of blind> inflexibility, make sure you evaluate your own> argument.Read more carefully my friend, you're missing the point again.> I know exactly what you are talking about. You just> need to admit that this isn't about hair. It's about> freedom of choice. You're free to leave you hair long.> Jena's free to cut hers. And, for better or worse,> people are free to give their opinion on both. If that> isn't what this board is about and it was intended as> a long hair support group, then I probably shouldn't> have wandered by in the first place.No comment.> Oh, and there is a difference between running away and> knowing when it is to time to gracefully extricate> myself from a situation.Now?> Nope, don't have long hair. Don't know anyone> personally with the Crystal Gayle length tresses that> you and others on this board sport. However, Mrs. Flea> has hair 3/4 of the way down her back and is probably> going to grow it to her waist and I know/have known> many women with long hair up to waist length. So, I'm> not completely oblivious to your situation, which I've> explained in excrutiating detail several times now and> have no desire to explain again.This sounds like the "some of my best friends are...." argument people use when they don't have any real firsthand experience with an issue.> Which is part of the reason that I'm bailing out on> this discussion.Now?> Oh, I'm hearing folks and I'm admittedly somewhat> slanted, though I see both sides. As I've said> multiple times before, I believe that not every> hairstyle looks good on every person. If I met you in> person Dawn, I may very well think you had the most> beautiful hair known to man. That doesn't necessarily> mean, however, that the hairstyle is flattering to> you. A subtle, yet important difference.Flattering by some arbitrarily imposed fashion police rules? My neck isn't long enough? My face is too round? My lips are too thin? My eyebrows too faint? My butt not perfect enough to rate? I couldn't even begin to care less whether the rules "allow" me to wear my hair as I choose or not, and I think many more women would have the leeway to be much happier with the equipment God gave them if these "fashion regulations" were ignored by all, something I wholeheartedly advocate.> Oh, and why do I now find this boring and repetitive?> Because I could write your response to this post> before you even write it. :)No comment.Best wishes to all whatever your personal preferences, may they be your own, not something imposed by others!Dawn
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