How I see a few things in the great long hair debate

> To let a single act of coersion that happened in the> distant past define the totality of some aspect of> your persoanlity seems, IMO, to be exceedingly> limiting.But to say this is to deny the reality of how our personalities are formed. All experiences, both good and bad, define (in part) who we become.> Hey, I am comitted to my wife today, and I plan to> stay married to her until one of us dies. BUT, I don't> ever say "NEVER" because nobody knows what> tomorrow may bring. I am in no way implying that I am> a loose-living scroundrel who messes around at all. In> fact, I am very steadfast in my commitment to her.Neither was I intending to imply such description applied to you. Might you possibly concede that perhaps Dawn views her commitment (to that which she values) similarly to the way in which you are "steadfast in your commitment" to your wife?This has been one of the points I have been trying to express to you all along. I absolutely cannot speak as Dawn's representatitve and I don't pretend to do so, but I see her possessing a "steadfast commitment" to the many things that she values.Your trying to dissuade her from the possession of the depth of her "steadfast commitments" might be seen as tantamount to someone questioning your commitment to that which you value (such as your marriage).Dave

> I have to say you are being very cruel to> Dawn. I might be wrong but to me it is really starting> to look like you are totally obsessed over Dawn for> whatever reason.Whatever. By the same token, YOU are totally obsessed with ME. So there. :-(Look: someone posts something I disagree with, I post back. I don't treat any individual with malice or cruelty, I post in reply to what I disagree with (although sometimes I do generate posts of my own orignation).I have in no way treated anyone with "cruelty", nor have I singled anyone out on this board.I object to your characterization of my postings. Period.> Why is it so important to you that she agrees with you> about changing or never to say never? Does she affect> your life?Why is it important to YOU to attack/disagree with ME?? Why is it important for ANYONE on this silly board to post AT ALL???Yes, these are rhetorical questions, designed to get you to realize that we ALL post in repsonse to things that we disagree with.> Does her personal goals affect yours in life?Do anyone goals on this board affect anyone else's life at all?? Why does anyone post here at all?? Why is it so important to you to jump into this discussion?> Just because this is the internet there is a real> person typing those post. Someone will real feeling> and it can really hurt.In no way have I attacked or done any other thing that will "hurt" someone's feelings. It has been a long time since I used words like "boring"...I realized then that I was wrong and I apologized. Since then I have been very aware not to use inflamatory language.But, if you suggest that I apologize for being in the minority and having an opinion that differs from most here, then I do not apologize.If Dawn got here feelings hurt, then I will just have to say that I did not mean to offend; but, this is a discussion group where different opinions will be aired. If someone disagrees with you, don't get hurt, post a reply!Z.

Dawn said: "since all of us, (and I think perhaps most often those of us with very long hair), have in the dark recesses of our hair history some defining moment when our hair choices were solidified because we were coerced...or otherwise convinced to do something with our hair that was against our own wishes"Your reply was:> You mean like when you were a kid and your mommy and> daddy made you get a despised "boy's> haircut" for the summer???>> Gosh, Dawn....you make it sound a little like the> "short hair demons" are gonna get you if you> peek under the bed at night! BOO!Who but Dawn knows at this point what her defining moment was? Perhaps it was a matter of her being coerced into an unwanted haircut. If that's the case, then why do you make light of an act of coercion? Do you think it appropriate to mock and ridicule someone for having been previously victimized?Dawn said: "for some of us, our little hair epiphany came many, many years ago"Your reply:> Yikes! Now having long flowing hair is like seeing god> and the truth all at once?!?Yes it is. Didn't you know? ;-) [I'm teasing you Zorak] You know what she means...Dawn said: "To me, the wishy washy, maybe I will, maybe I won't, who knows what I might do statements you proffer as preferrable to a staunt, confident NEVER, are the very essence of insecurity, not the other way around."Your reply:> I disagree. To me, statements like "NEVER"> [note the emphasis on YOUR capitals in all of your> posts] sound a lot like "whistling past the> graveyard"; it is just repeated over and over to> rationalize your belief that you have made the correct> choice, or to comfort you to feel that everything is> OK.But Dawn *has* made her choice, and made the one that she feels is correct for her. And I agree with her that firmly and honestly stating that I will "NEVER" do something is a sign of security because it indicates firm resolve.> Most neurotics [note this is purpose of argument only,> I am NOT calling anyone here a neurotic], or other> people afflicted with syndromes characterized by> incessent worrying or insecurity, keep to the same old> patterns of behavior for decades. In fact, this can> often be one of the defining syptoms of a neurosis,> when taken in the context of other symptoms!The key words which nullify the significance of the above paragraph are "...when taken in the context of other symptoms." If you really believe your paragraph has a bearing on the discussion, it seems to me an argument could be made that a diagnosis of neurosis could apply in the other direction as well.Dawn said: "You're confused and mistaken about the depth of character it takes to sustain such reliable, dependable convictions, I think."Your reply:> You don't have to be a saint or Nelson Mandella to> grow long hair for decades. C'mon Dawn!But someone who has very long hair has clearly demonstrated a conviction to allow it to do so. If a person were frequently or occasionally indecisive about their hair, and periodically acted upon their indecision, they would not possess very long hair.Dawn said: "Twenty three years is a long time to nurture something..."Your reply:> Agreed. But, there is always a time to let go of> something, too.Dawn's statement was a general statement. I suspect you inferred she was talking only about her hair, but who knows, perhaps she was talking about her marriage as well or instead? Some people do adhere to their commitment to their original spouses until death (forever), since they have made a vow, a promise, to do so at their wedding.I'm not asking for feedback, but I wonder how you reconcilecertain marital issues with many of the opinions you have expressed here.Dave

The funny thing is that I am not altogether unsympathetic to your situation, since all of us, (and I think perhaps most often those of us with very long hair), have in the dark recesses of our hair history some defining moment when our hair choices were solidified because we were coerced, forced, persuaded, encouraged, intimidated, or otherwise convinced to do something with our hair that was against our own wishes and preferences and ended up with hair that was not to our liking, though your trauma being self inflicted is another issue, but aside from that, the problem with your insistence that saying with confidence and not shame that you will NEVER cut your hair is somehow weak or insecure and that without our hair we are somehow a shell, or non existant, because we have lost our defining characteristic, doesn't take into consideration that for some of us, our little hair epiphany came many, many years ago and in the interim time we have cultivated lives, families, personalities, seething sexuality and other abiding attributes that I assure you can sustain us should some catastrophic event beyond our control somehow rob of us of what you so mistakenly refer to as the only tangible that makes us who we are. Can't you see that you're projecting your own feelings and experience onto others who might not in any way have the same trouble distinguishing between the facile and the sublime?> Your statement right here is where people get the> "insecurity" idea. Would a person who is> totally secure in himself not say, "I love my> long hair and have no desire to cut it now. I don't> see my opinion changing in the near future, but who> knows? Maybe one day I will, but if I change, I change> because I want to do so, not from any outside> presure."To me, the wishy washy, maybe I will, maybe I won't, who knows what I might do statements you profer as preferrable to a staunt, confident NEVER, are the very essence of insecurity, not the other way around. The definition of insecure is "not confident, filled with anxieties, not firm or dependable, unreliable" so how can someone who has held firm to a goal, a passion, an ideal for more than two decades ever be considered insecure? You're confused and mistaken about the depth of character it takes to sustain such reliable, dependable convictions, I think.> Whenever a person has a feature that stands apart from> the crowd (very tall or very short, very thin or very> obese, very short hair or very long hair), he is often> defined by that feature. Obviously something like> height will not change, but something like hair may.> What if (and I hope this never happens to *any* of> us!) we became ill and a medication like chemotherapy> causes us to lose our hair? If the hair has been the> focus of who we are intrinsically, then the person is> pretty much non-existant without that defining facet.Well, again, here you can only speak for yourself, but I can assure you, that, as I said, those of us who have spent a lifetime growing our hair have had plenty of time to cultivate a life and a personality and it is offensive to suppose otherwise. How do you think we got this hair anyway? Twenty three years is a long time to nurture something so just because you might feel non-existant without your hair doesn't mean we couldn't hack it when we didn't have ours, we just don't want to anymore and have done something about it and would NEVER relinquish it of our own choosing, for example, like you did.> Excellent! I really hate to have to use the name of> someone whom I consider rather rude, but lurker did> make a good point. A value is something that can't be> lost. Hair is a tangible that can be. A person who> retains his values is wealthy. A person who retains> non-tangibles is wealthy only as long as he possesses> those non-tangibles -- they can be lost or stolen.> Someone can cut our hair and our essence is gone. No> one can steal our values without our permission.Well, no one can steal our hair without our permission either, unforseen natural disasters don't count, and it seems that some missed the point of my lumping the loyalty to husband, family and hair in one sentence, but it was quite simply to illustrate that for some of us, all of these things are life's blessed constants, unchanging, a non-issue, a non negotionable given we would never alter of our own free will. You see, I can say never. It doesn't bother me because as H Taylor so eloquently and simply put it, we know ourselves and our character and the depth of our loyalty to ourselves so never doesn't scare us.> I still want long hair! But I'll never again allow it> to become my defining feature.Well then, and I am LOATHE to admit this, but I have to say that I agree with Zorak that if you want to grow up as a person and perhaps understand that one can indeed, with time, possess the outer countenance that adequately portrays the inner self, you should suck it up and accept what you've done and let your hair grow out in its own good time. Hair extensions are a cheaters way out and will teach you nothing about patience and fortitude. If you really want to be a longhair, you have to pay the price, that being cultivating inner strength until the outside catches up to the inside and the facade matches the heart. There really is no other way.Good luck. Anybody can say they want long hair, but few can cut it to really accomplish that goal. Let us know in twenty years or so where you end up on that bell curve of success.Just a few thoughts.Very best wishes to all,Dawn

I know this isn't true all of the time, but I honestly think that sometimes when short-haired people tell long-haired people to cut their hair, it simply reinforces their own views of preferring short hair. Kind of like peer pressure to conform. When people do what we do (wear the same clothes, hair, and so forth), it makes us feel good about what we're doing.> MAKE YOUR OWN DECISIONS, AND STOP> FEELING THAT YOU HAVE APOLIGIZE TO YOUR CRITICS!I absolutely agree!! But, as I mentioned in another post, I'm getting a lot of compliments on my recent conversion to short hair, but I definitely prefer long hair and am growing it. I get frustrated at the compliments actually because what it says to me is this: "You had no style or taste before. Now you do and should keep it this way." {sigh} However, I have to live with my hair 24 hours a day. I'll wear it any way I want!

>You are right that one shouldn't care . It is just frustrating to hear it over and over again. It like someone saying gee why don't you lose some weight, or build up your muscles. If someone is happy the way they are then leave them alone.If someone doesn't ask for one's opinion they shouldn't offer it. Heck, I don't go around telling my short sister and mother etc to grow their hair. I have better things to do but they seem to find the time to tell me" gee Diane did you see that actrist on TV? Wasn't her hair great? Maybe you should consider cutting it because you will be 40 in two years etc and so on and on. They don't influence me one bit. I just think that some people have their nerve.I guess my question to the ones that go around and tell everyone to cut their hair is" why would they care if someone else has long hair? WHy does everyone have to follow the short hair route in their opinions? Where is the room to be unique and creative in our own ways in life?

Dawn, I just read your post and wanted to make a few comments.> Are those of us with a preference> not necessarily typical supposed to just accept these> character judgments because others are unable or> unwilling to understand or accept our loyal, and I> think, quite noble, stable, commendable, commitment to> our ideals? Certainly not.Absolutely right! I am so sick of the "cookie cutter" ideal!> The discussion and the issue is does someone have the> right to publicly proclaim that long haired people are> displaying latent insecurities and retarded emotional> development by their perceived obsession with keeping> their hair, just because they can comfortably say that> for them, cutting their hair is not and never will be> a desirable option.I simply cannot understand why this insecurity bit came up -- I would think that a matter of free choice (in this case, you choosing NOT to cut your hair) shows security, rather than its opposite.> As far as conclusions go, it would seem to me that the> only real conclusion has been avoided completely, that> being that it is inappropriate, offensive and rude to> make comments and character assessments regarding> people you don't know based on your assumptions about> their choice in hairstyle. It is the height of> arrogance to make pronouncements regarding someones> spiritual, emotional, or intellectual development> based on those same erroneous assumptions.Very well-said!> I have some> opinions about the mental stability of someone who on> a whim, chops off their hair to a nub one day only to> awaken the next regretting their impulsiveness and> starts saving for the hair extensions that will> somehow magically repair the damage of such a> psychotic episode.I cannot comment on this situation because I don't know the person personally.I also have some strong opinions> about people who think its fun to change, hair, job,> house, religion, political affiliation, lifestyle> choice, etc., every couple of years because> "change is so very good for you". . . ."Change" can wear two faces, one being positive and one being negative. I personally believe that commitment can be far more positive, and when a person says I may "change" my mind about such, it infuriates me! I had a male friend (well, now former friend) tell me that I couldn't say that I would never cheat on my boyfriend because I can't see what the future holds. WRONG! I can say I won't cheat because I know my character and strength thereof -- I have life plans, and they do not include being unfaithful in any way, shape, or form to my boyfriend or to myself or my own values. Obviously for you, you've found that you don't want to cut your hair -- and 23 years of growth is tremendous, by the way! :) Thus, if you or anybody else says they're never going to cut their hair, what's the point in others having fits over such a decision? That may not be the commitment everybody chooses, but it is a commitment that should be respected.> Just because someone else has found need> to reevaluate and overhaul their life on a regular> basis doesn't mean I have to. How do they know I> wasn't just thoughtful and clever enough to get it> right the first time?Perfectly summed up. That's why the truly great guys don't have mid-life crises. :)

Please change:> A person who retains> non-tangibles is wealthy only as long as he possesses> those non-tangibles -- they can be lost or stolen.to:A person who retains tangibles (such as money, hair, and so forth) is wealthy only as long as he possesses those tangibles -- they can be lost or stolen.Sorry for the misunderstanding.

To quote the Barenaked Ladies: "Mental health is overrated."If you'll excuse me now, I think I'll go downtown, strip and go rollerblading nude during rush hour. No wait, Jimmy Buffett already wrote a song about me when I did it in California.Let's see, I could attend a PETA meeting eating a pork sandwich. Or I could attend a pork producers meeting with a PETA t-shirt that says "Death to all those who eat meat."Or better yet, I could cut my hair even shorter and walk around with a pair of scissors in my hair at a long hair lovers convention asking, "Would you like a trim?" Or show up with a waist-length wig at a crewcut convention with a sign that says, "Women with short hair have no sense of style or femininity."Let's just put our heads together and come up with some really good ones now.... {grin}You rock, Zorak!

> the issue is does someone have the right to publicly> proclaim that long haired people are displaying latent> insecurities and retarded emotional development by their> perceived obsession with keeping their hairIn a single word "YES". People in the USA have a pretty great lattitude to make public pronouncements of this type because it is protected 1st Amendment speech.Of course, people can say LOTS of things that may have no bearing on reality at all...look at the trash tabloids and their stories of alien abductions.Hey, if a person makes a statement like the one you suggested above, it is his/her opinion. You are free to disagree, AND to post your opinions too!> they can comfortably say that for them, cutting their hair> is not and never will be a desirable option.Oh boy, here we go! Never say never. Just don't think for a minute that you can say with any certainty at all what tomorrow will bring. You can say with a fairly high degree of confidence, but with certainty: no.> It is the height of arrogance to make pronouncements> regarding someones spiritual, emotional, or intellectual> development based on those same erroneous assumptions.Your opinion, you are entitled to it.> I have some opinions about the mental stability of someone> who on a whim, chops off their hair...a psychotic episode.Arrogant, Dawn? Maybe it is not nice of you to say these things about people in this group who have shared with us their experience of personal growth and change. SHAME ON YOU! Calling someone psychotic who cut their hair! ;-)> I also have some strong opinions about people who think> its fun to change, hair, job, house, religion, political> affiliation, lifestyle choice, etc., every couple of yearsWOOO. I guess this broadsides is aimed right in MY direction, huh? WOOOO.You have strong opionions, huh? WOOOOO.> but you know what? You don't hear me making disparaging> remarks about those people's personal choices or> character or integrity or mental health do you?YOU JUST DID!!! You called one person a "psychotic", that is pretty darn disparaging, don't you think?> I will NEVER cut my hair.AKKK. AKKK. AKKK. Who cares if you do or don't??? Or is this just your "manifesto"???> I will NEVER betray or leave my husband. I will NEVER> abandon my children. I will NEVER, of my own free will,> wear pantyhose! I will NEVER live a life not true to the> stirrings of my soul just because "change" is sure to> bowl me overWHOA! You are really over heating here....take a deep breath and catch yourself!BTW, What will you do if you soul tells you it is time for something new in your life???> My choices are born of thoughtful reasoning, cemented by> many years of experience and retrospection...In the> inevitably changing fortunes of time the constancy of> my choices provide me with dependable enjoyment,> personal fullfillment and deep satisfaction.OK OK, enough already! LOL! ;-)> You want some conclusion?...Conclude that by constantly> insisting that someone will...change, people are not> offering up pearls of universal wisdom they are displaying> their own inability to understand the virtues of stability> and conviction.OK, now here we go again...Conviction like what? A mindless marine plant, serene and waving too and fro in the currents of the ocean? Conviction like a rock, unable or unwilling to metamorphose into a gemstone?> How do they know I wasn't just thoughtful and clever> enough to get it right the first time?OH, and THAT attitude is not arrogant??? "I am so good that I am always right???" If this is true, then you are certainly way above us "mere mortals".> No wait, maybe if I whack off 23 years growth of glorious> hair I'll feel better about myself!Well, you won't know unless you try it! ;-)Z.