Here's an important point, one that is too often ignored:
As an American, yes, one is entitled to his or her opinion. This finds expression in the statement, "It's a free country." Indeed it is. However, do remember that one is accountable for that opinion; therefore, those who disagree are just as free to voice dissent, and take that opinion to task.
So farmrat, you have exercised your God-given rights. Nuts to you. And those who disagree with you have done likewise.
Now then, farmrat, your statement vis a vis Ms. Milano's femininity has proven quite controversial on this board. I am in the majority who is taking you TO task on it. WHAT THE**** WERE YOU THINKING?!?! LITTLE EXTRA CRACK IN THE MOONSHINE, MAYBE?
No I don't think you are in bad stead with the short haired women on the boards Dave, you seem a decent enough guy, but Brent and Jasmine made some really good points that you just ignored. You read selectively or at least you give that impression. They made some very important and thoughtful points.
No one was saying the rat can't post here. But obviously we get tired of people saying directly or in a subtle way that short hair doesn't look good on women, it looks "mannish", or whatever.
I've noticed too what Brent said. Those who prefer short hair on women never say that long haired women look "mannish". That's just dumb.
Jasmine you made a good point too when you said short hair on women has been around for almost one hundred years in the western cultures, that you would think people by now would get past the cliches and ancient stereotypes of short hairstyles on women being less than feminine or making the woman look less feminine. What century are these people in anyway? Geeeez!
And Rod, one of my girlfriends is Jewish and she doesn't have a big nose! And if you said to a Jewish person that big nosed Jews are ugly, of course that would be offensive to a Jew. Geeeez! What an old stereotype! Most Jewish people I've met don't have big noses anyway! Or if you said Black people's noses are ugly, of course that is offensive. That may be an opinion, but it's a stupid one, and if someone objected to that, well what do you expect? Geeeez Louise! And if you say that short haired women look mannish, even one as pretty as Alyssa, of course people will object!
What planet are you people living on anyway!
But like Brent said, this is starting to get boring.
I grew up in a little hick town where half the people were on welfare or S.S.I checks, where too many people drank too much, and where I heard every stupid, prejudice,unsophisticated opinion and every swear word way too many times. So I moved to a metro area to get away from the ignorant hicks, and thank God I did! But now, apparently, some of the hicks have managed to get computers so we have to put up with their ignorant, outdated, unsophisticated, stupid opinions on the computer boards! It's hard to escape it I guess. Oh well.
Yes Brent, I did read what you three have written.
Brent E from San Francisco wrote:
Of course Dave you are not that offended if someone calls you unmasculine for wearing long hair. You're a dude. It's different with us men Dave. We can laugh it off or shrug it off easier. We're dudes.
Hmm... I know several women (seriously) who would describe your comment as being sexist.
I think it's a matter of individual self-confidence, regardless of gender.
Brent E from San Francisco wrote:
From my observation it isn't that easy for a woman to laugh off or shrug off being called manish or unfeminine. Try and have a little sensitivity to the feelings of the women with short hair on these boards.
I am not guilty of your charge. I have no reason to think that I am not in good stead with the women here.
farmrat01
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Why are you all making a big deal out of nothing. As a said earlier it is just one mans opinion. Rod is the only one rational enough to think this way. If i hurt Ms Milano's feelings I am sorry but if for some weird chance she doesn't read this board it is no big deal. As an American I am allowed my own opinion. I am not a racist or gay as I've been called already in the past two days by people on this board, but if you think I'm either you are more than welcome to think so. I did not think you would take it this far. Peace, Love and Im out.
Rod: It amazes me how little you and Dave seem to know about women. I'm sure you guys have been with women. You both seem hetro.
You must know that- Saying a woman looks manish or unfeminine is just about the worst thing you could ever say about a woman! And saying that an extremely feminine woman like Alyssa Milano-(and I really do doubt your hetrosexuality if you don't think Alyssa Milano is feminine and attractive)- looks manish or unfeminine with a short hairstyle is very insulting to women with short hair.
It's the choice of words. As I'm sure you know, words matter in this context. Words like manish or unfeminine when refering to a woman or a style of hair in incredibly insulting to women who wear their hair like that. Some words are more insulting than others. Mature adults try and choose words that express their opinion without being an insensitive jerk. That to me isn't political correctness, it's called good manners.
Please, try and have some sensitivity to the short haired women who write here. I prefer short hair on women but I am very careful not to insult women who wear long hair or their long hair styles. I would never dream of calling them "manish" or "unfeminine".
But then again there are still people who believe that Jewish people are selfish or greedy and that African-Americans are lazy or stupid. Prejudice dies hard.
It really isn't prejudice. His statement is like saying, "I don't like lazy African-Americans." or "Jewish people with big noses are unattractive." If he said short-haired women were stupid, that would be prejudice.
No one called anyone on this board mannish. Someone called Alyssa Milano's do mannish. You shouldn't apply that to yourself.
His opinion isn't "ridiculous," "absurd," "insulting" or "untrue." It's his opinion. Some people don't find short-haired women attractive. (Leaves them for me.) Surely, everybody on this board has certain races, genders, or physical body traits they find unattractive. If I say I don't find men attractive, am I prejudiced?
Dave. Threats??? I'm expressing my opinion! If someone writes something insulting, I might insult back! -----that's human nature. And no my comments weren't directed at you anyway Dave. I was refering to Farmrat's "manish" statement about Alyssa or short hair on women.
Dave: Did you even read what Jasmine, Tina and myself wrote??? All of us said very clearly that people should express their opinions, even if we find them insulting. No one said Farmrat can't express his opinion. And then we said we have the right to disagree and express our opinion! That's all we are doing! We have that right!
Let me try this again: And as I said, calling a woman manish or unfeminine is about the most hurtfull, insulting thing you could say to her. Of course Dave you are not that offended if someone calls you unmasculine for wearing long hair. You're a dude. It's different with us men Dave. We can laugh it off or shrug it off easier. We're dudes. From my observation it isn't that easy for a woman to laugh off or shrug off being called manish or unfeminine. Try and have a little sensitivity to the feelings of the women with short hair on these boards.
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Dave: ... If you don't want to be demeaned or insulted then don't insult or demean short haired women by calling them manish or unfeminine, or we'll be right back at you!
Brent, are you directing this comment at me?
Correct me if I misunderstand what you're saying here... You're saying that if I were to express this particular opinion that you would harass and dog me ("berate, insult, and shout down," as Rod put it) into recanting the statement of such opinion?
Is that a threat or a promise?
Why can't you allow people to "suffer" the consequences of their own actions which include offering up unfavorable opinions on celebrity hairstyles?
And who made you the authority on what is or is not demeaning and insulting?
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I am not offended if people think I look unmasculine or "femmy." Possession of such an opinion does not make it true and does not imply that I must believe it. Stereotyping is a sign of a mind incapable of assessing an individual's character, and does not reflect well on those who employ it.
People are entitled to their opinions, because they are just that -- opinions. In 1774 Patrick Henry famously said, "I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to my death your right to say it." (history buffs, please forgive the paraphrasing.) It seems that in this country (America) we have become very thin-skinned because we can't tolerate hearing others express opinions that don't agree with our own. IMO this intolerance is not a healthy indication. Opinions that do not agree with mine or yours or anybody else's are not necessarily "untrue." They are offered as opinions, not as statements of fact (the truth of which can be proven or disproven).
If "insulting" opinions on celebrity hair are disallowed on this board, the rule could not be applied retroactively because that form of commentary has been standard operating practice since day one.
Dave: I agree with Jasmine. No one is saying the Farmrat can't express his opinion, even if it is ridiculous or insulting. I also agree that others then have the right to blast such a degrogatory and negative opinion. - If you know anything about women Dave, and I'm sure you do, about the worst thing you could ever say to her is that she looks manish or unfeminine. - I know my Asian-American wife who has short hair would be just as offended by someone saying she looks manish or unfeminine as someone saying they don't like Asians. That is just about the worst thing you could ever say to a woman. To a woman being called unfeminine is as bad as racism, so when people talk of prejudice, I agree it is prejudice and it does hurt women's feelings. And as pointed out, it isn't true anyway. Women with short hair are often very feminine and hardly manish looking. That's certainly true with Alyssa Milano.
Banning opinions?: I certainly don't believe that anyone's opinions should be banned. But when someone says that short haired women look manish or unfeminine, that is incredibly insulting to the many women who wear short hair. - I would expect women with short hair to defend themselves against such absurd statements. - The men who love them will defend them too. If you don't want to be demeaned or insulted then don't insult or demean short haired women by calling them manish or unfeminine, or we'll be right back at you!
Side note: Yes the year is 2003. I was flicking around the cable T.V. today watching the various news stations. Almost every newswoman I saw had short hair or medium short hair, and of course they were all feminine and attractive, as Alyssa Milano is. The news stations don't hire unattractive women.
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As you probably know Dave I am an African-American woman who has my hair cut in a very short afro. I too am very offended by someone saying that women with short hair are somehow "unfeminine". Do you like it Dave if, because you have long hair, someone says you are "unmasculine" or "femmy". The long haired men I know would be very offended at such a statement, as they should be. It is an outdated stereotype. When someone says something that is untrue and offensive I would hope people would speak out against it. That isn't political correctness. That is just our right to speak out against an insulting comment. which we have every right to do.
As far as I can tell Dave, no one said that Farmrat couldn't give his insulting opinion. No one said he, or what he says about hair, should be banned from the boards. I think that others here were rightly offended by the statement insinuating that lovely Alyssa looked unfeminine, and they responded accordingly. That is their right .
iShort hair on women has been around in the western world since Josephine Baker and the short bob look of the 1920s. You would think this sort of insulting prejudice towards short hair on women would have been long gone by now.
But then again there are still people who believe that Jewish people are selfish or greedy and that African-Americans are lazy or stupid. Prejudice dies hard.
.
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Hmm... let's recap recent "discussion" on this topic...
farmrat01 expresses an opinion, tina m professes that it's okay if his opinion differs from hers, then she and Brent E proceed to, as Rod puts it, "berate, insult, and shout down people who have opinions" contrary to their own... and immediately after Rod expresses his (accurate) observation, tina m repeats the berating, insulting and shouting down not only of Rod's observation, but of the opinion that Alyssa Milano looks mannish in a pixie.
So, shall we vote on whether or not the opinion that Alyssa Milano looks mannish in a pixie be permissible here? And while we're at it, can someone please enlighten me on what other celebrity hairstyle opinions can and cannot be expressed here? thanks.
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Its just one man opinion. You dont need to go balistic on what i think of Miss Millano. I may be a hick but i am still an american. Isnt that enogh for me to speak my mind.
The year is 2003. There are as many women around with short hair as long hair. If you don't believe me go to the shopping mall.
And there are many men who like women in short hair.
There is no reason to insult women with short hair by saying they are "unfeminine" or "mannish". That isn't true and it is a form of prejudice. It's ugly, stupid language not much better than racism.
And Rod, as we all know, Gord who writes here JUST LOVES long hair on women and doesn't usually care for short hair on women but he would never say anything as stupid and ridiculous as saying that a very feminine woman like Alyssa looks "mannish" in a pixie. There are opinions and then there is stupidity and prejudice. I never see the people who love short haired women here write that a long haired woman looks "unfeminine" or "mannish", even though they don't like long hair on women.
There is opinion and then there is insulting language and prejudice. You can say you prefer a woman with long hair over a short hair style without questioning her femininty or saying she looks "mannish". That's simply stupidity and prejudice and is very insulting to women who wear short hair.
And I'm sure we are not stopping anyone from posting here, just don't be prejudice or use insulting language and you won't be insulted back. That's obvious.
Some people think some races of women aren't as feminine as other races. If they were to call a race of women "mannish" it would be very insulting -(and untrue)- and they would be insulted back.
I will always speak out against prejudice. You can have opinions and preferences without that.
Some of you, while professing to welcome other opinions, berate, insult, and shout down people who have opinions other than your own. By belittling that opinion, you discourage different opinions and scare away people who have any other opinion. I've seen this happen elsewhere. I don't post to hear myself talk, but to share my thoughts and read other people's thoughts.
If someone feels Alyssa looks "mannish," that's their opinion. Some men, and women, don't like short hair on women. They shouldn't be insulted for thinking that way.
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Brent E from San Francisco wrote:
