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Longhairdreams View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Longhairdreams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 01 2006 at 10:18pm
Interesting topic.
 
But I have to agree with kuroneko.I know very few short haired women.I very rarely ever see any women around here with short hair.
 
But It also seems to be true that most men(but not all) prefer long hair.
 
 
I also agree with merlin about being force fed the idea about the ideal woman. Its true that studies prove this to be a sign of fertility.But it also sends an unhealthy message to girls who are fine trying to live up this standard because its the ideal image.
This is one of the reasons that plastic surgery has become so prevalent.Its obviously not to be more fertile.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveDecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 01 2006 at 2:00pm
Originally posted by Merlin101 Merlin101 wrote:

 I don't pay attention to polls or University studies because they are flawed from conception.  Most polls are biased and select their audience and participants based upon the desired result.  Further, men will cover their true feelings if their identity is known as they fear being labeled.
 
How do you know that the referenced survey wasn't conducted using well-established polling principles?  Might your dismissal of the referenced survey be based on it's disagreement with your preference?  Do you similarly disregard the validity of other such polls (not related to hair)?  Or only those with which you disagree?
 
Originally posted by Merlin101 Merlin101 wrote:

We are conditioned from early youth that long hair, large breast, hourglass figure is the only acceptable form of sexual attractiveness.
 
Unless of course such preferences are innate.  Other scientific studies have been done which support the definition of attraction you mention, because these features are indicative of health and fecundity.
 
Originally posted by Merlin101 Merlin101 wrote:

I honestly say that I see women with short hair or ultrashort hair as more confident and independent.  This does not mean that this is true for all women, just a general observation.
 
I just see confidence and independence as having the courage to do what you want.  I know many confident and independent women with long hair.  I don't see their decision to have long hair as a sign of weakness.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveDecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 01 2006 at 1:44pm
Originally posted by Kuroneko Kuroneko wrote:

A lot of women keep their hair long because they think that's what men are attracted to.
 
How do you know this to be true?  You state it as fact, without any support.  I rather believe most of the women wearing their hair long have it long because they like it, and prefer it to short... but then notice how I've stated this -- as an opinion.
 
Originally posted by Kuroneko Kuroneko wrote:

 
In all honesty, though, aside from the guys who are specifically hair fans, most guys probably don't care what a woman's hair looks like.  Most of them won't notice of care much if their woman changes her hair, because men just aren't societally trained to notice that kind of thing.  It's just like how a guy won't notice if a woman is wearing a new blouse-- males are societally trained not to care about anything fashion-related.
 
Some people think of hair (and treat it thusly) primarily as fashion.  No doubt this perception has been counseled by fashion enterprises who seek to exploit this perception for their own gain.
 
My opinion:  Innately for men, however, women's hair is viewed as an object of beauty, so while nearly all men would fail to notice a woman's new shoes or whatever, they're far more likely to notice changes women make to their hair.
 
 
[edited first quote to provide proper context to my comment]


Edited by DaveDecker - July 02 2006 at 12:29pm
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anne6000 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote anne6000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2006 at 9:29am
If you're judging a general population only by the audience at a music concert, then I can understand!  Take a look around.  Go to the grocery store, to the bank, to your local gym, and just look at the population in general.  There's no doubt that short rules.  TV news reporters rarely have long hair (it isn't "professional" you know).  As for Hollywood, look at a magazine for "celebrity hair" the next time you're at a magazine rack.  Lots and lots of celebs with short or very short hair.   A woman with long hair, especially very long hair, will always stand apart from the crowd.  I mean no offense at all, but short hair just blends in with the crowd because that's how the crowd usually wears their hair -- both men and women.  There's nothing wrong with that, but that's what provoked my original question. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Merlin101 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2006 at 7:20am
I'm not sure where you live or which age group you are referring to, but down South, the under 40 group is heavily weighted to long hair and has been since the 80's era.  This is the age group I see the most since we don't play country or gospel.  I would have to say the same for Hollywood as well.  We haven't toured the west coast in a year or so, but I'll bet things haven't changed. 
 
Now if you are referring to the over 60 group, you are right on.  Short hair dominates. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote anne6000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2006 at 11:18am
Originally posted by Merlin101 Merlin101 wrote:

[quote] As a musician, I prefer independent, confident, non-traditional women. 
 
Regarding hair length, a non-traditional woman is one with long hair in western society.  So, there is a contradiction in what you say.  And that contradiction is what I'm questioning.   I sense you feel threatened by the question, and I'm very sorry because I'm only trying to understand the reasoning of seeing a "non-traditional" girl as one who has short hair, when short hair is the average or the norm (among adult women, not teenagers)
 
And yet, no one can explain this; that's why it must be a fallacy.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Merlin101 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2006 at 9:13am

It seems Anne6000 brings up the same question frequently asked in these forums.  What do men really like about women and their hair?  I would say that men can be divided into three groups.  Long hair lovers, short hair lovers and "I don't care as long as they are gorgeous" lovers.  As far as beauty and sex appeal are concerned, I could care less.  I don't pay attention to polls or University studies because they are flawed from conception.  Most polls are biased and select their audience and participants based upon the desired result.  Further, men will cover their true feelings if their identity is known as they fear being labeled.  We are conditioned from early youth that long hair, large breast, hourglass figure is the only acceptable form of sexual attractiveness.  I honestly say that I see women with short hair or ultrashort hair as more confident and independent.  This does not mean that this is true for all women, just a general observation.  This attitude appeals to me due to the person I am. 

 Some people choose their profession, mine chose me.  As a musician, I prefer independent, confident, non-traditional women.  At least in my experience, short haired girls fit this mold more often than long haired girls.  Short haired girls are definitely more of a challenge and are more daring.  The long-haired girls I meet are predictably traditional down home girls.  What is really interesting is that they believe they are daring and party girls, but generally speaking, they don't even have a clue.  For the evening, give me either.  For a relationship, give me the short haired girls!
I can barely conjure myself out of bed, let alone conjure up the devil.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kuroneko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2006 at 11:40pm

Based on what I've seen, the usual hair length for American women is anywhere between shoulder-length and mid-back, which is far from short.  A lot of women keep their hair long because they think that's what men are attracted to.

In all honesty, though, aside from the guys who are specifically hair fans, most guys probably don't care what a woman's hair looks like.  Most of them won't notice of care much if their woman changes her hair, because men just aren't societally trained to notice that kind of thing.  It's just like how a guy won't notice if a woman is wearing a new blouse-- males are societally trained not to care about anything fashion-related.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tyranna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2006 at 2:01pm

Dave is correct - most stylists are short-hair biased because shorter hairstyles provide for them (1) a better guarantee for return customers; and (2) an easier job to perform.  There are many stylists that see working and shaping longer styles simply as too much work.  (Stylist Nick on that TV show 'What Not to Wear' is exactly like this.  He can be quite excellent at shaping and improving longer hair, but he ALWAYS prefers to cut the hair instead.)

 

And shorter hair styles means less time in the styling chair for you and more turnaround time for customers for the hair stylist, which means more $$$.

 

The majority of guys I have known in my entire life prefer longer hair on women.  Anna Kournukova for example, would not have ever become an international beauty sensation had she worn her hair really short.  Healthy long hair definitely has an exotic appeal. 

 

I honestly do not know where this idea that a woman with long hair has self-esteem issues came from.  Besides, I would say the majority of fashion models and actresses these days all have longer hair.

 

And I do not think that short hair should be considered the "norm".  My impression is that I see women (and girls) with all kinds of variety in hair length.  And this is a good thing.   Freedom of choice is always better than having only one alternative.   If you look at a period – the early to mid 1950s is a great example, you will see what I mean.  Almost all women had these horribly stiff, butchered, flat, lifeless short hair styles.  Blecch! 

 

Just as it is bad to condemn people with long hair, it is bad to put down those that prefer shorter hair.  We should all have the choice and damn the stylists.  They are there, after all, to service us.  We are their customers.

 

Where you frequently see women tend to cut their hair is usually during life transitions.  Teenage girls who have had long hair all during their childhood will sometimes cut it short.  Many a new mother will cut her hair.  Often it is for convenience, but also it is because she is married and has produced off-spring, therefore she can now put less into her sexual appearance since she accomplished her goal.  (Actually and not just in regards to hair, this is something you can see happen with both spouses after marriage - less attention to physical appearance and desirability because they have successfully completed courtship and now have their mates.)  So that kind of blows the whole 'women have shorter hair to be more sexually alluring' argument out of the water.

 

To the age argument that women over a certain age should cut their hair, this is simply an old attitude that continues to cling to our culture.  And it used to be the exact opposite.  So it is entirely arbitrary. 

 

Besides, I recall an interview I saw once with Tina Turner.  She was asked how she kept looking so young and she explained it as follows.  If you are told all your life that at 40 you must cut your hair and start wearing matronly banker-wives clothes and act like a middle age women - you will look exactly like a matronly 40+ year-old woman if you should so follow suit.

 

Also given the growing popularity of hair extensions, I would say that longer hair styles remain very much in vogue.   But that brings us right back to the profit line for hair stylists.  In our fast-food culture, not many people have the patience to grow long hair.  Trends like perming, straightening, and extreme coloring* add further roadblocks to achieving long, healthy hair.  Hair extensions get around that and someone with damaged, over-processed hair (like a Paris Hilton) can magically have two feet of hair length added. 

 

Course the price tag for this is high.  I like to check out the extensions forum, because it is cool to see what kinds of hair styles they create.  But they casually talk about the costs which ranges anywhere from several hundred dollars to $4500 (in one example).  So if a stylist has the opportunity to score $4500, why would they even want to encourage longer hair growth?  And the extension process itself can be damaging, which means you are right back at the stylist forking over yet more money to fix your “problem hair”.

 

We need to cultivate our own appearances, not what Madison Avenue dictates.  If you like longer hair – go for it. 

 

*(I consider extreme coloring things like the Gwen Steffani platinum white, or the unfortunate trend with gothic black.  Both treatments are extraordinarily damaging to one's hair and the real horror stories occur when a person wants to go from black to white blond or vise-versa.   LOL, the hair color forum seems to be so frequently inundated with these kinds of screw-ups, it is a wonder they do not have a sticky devoted to just that one topic.)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote anne6000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2006 at 9:59am
Dear Dave,
 
I'll try to sum up my feelings about what you wrote here....you are brilliant, I love you, you are incredibly astute, you are my god....!!
 
Sorry, I don't want to embarrass you, and yes, I know you're just as human as the rest of us, but you really do have an insight that is so refreshing to those of us who live in the generic world where what  is thrown out at us is just supposed to be absorbed without any real thought.
 
I'll be the first to say (and I honestly think you'd say the same thing) that any woman who really loves short hair all by herself, without any coaxing from anyone, should of course keep her hair cut short.  It's her hair, and she should do what she wants with it!  However, I just feel that there are so many different ways (with my example about the "daring" women with short hair in my above post) that women (and I can't imagine the pressure you, as a man, have to endure) are told that they just shouldn't have long hair, especially past a certain age.
 
Thank you very much for that study!  It's just what I thought and although I realize that not every man loves long hair on a woman, the majority do. 

Quote There are probably a few men who like women being defiant, but I think there are lots of men who like strong women.  There is a difference.
 
I think you're very keen with this statement, and I couldn't agree more.

Quote I don't understand your stylist's comments.  Why would men prefer women to defy traditional definitions of femininity?
 
I think the reasoning is that the woman is just supposed to be so ultra confident of her femininity that all her other areas of personality overshadow the fact that she's wearing short hair, traditionally seen as unfeminine.  Oddly enough, though, I've never seen a woman "that feminine" that fit that description.
 
Quote One more thing - the notion of long hair being inappropriate for "older" people is a myth.  I know of many women who are in their 40's and beyond who have beautiful long, long hair -- and they look great.
 
I don't have a Swiss bank account, but when I do, you'll be the first one with the key and password!  I don't want to gush, but I just can't tell you how wonderful it is to hear your viewpoint.  I know that a lot of women here share it, and I appreciate it, but it just seems somehow stronger coming from someone who isn't in that situation (naturally, a woman who is over 40 and has long hair is going to agree, and it isn't that her opinion is any less valid than anyone else, but hopefully you know what I'm trying to say here)
 
Thanks for everything, Dave, and all the other great people here.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveDecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2006 at 12:12pm
Oh Anne... the subject line is "exhibit A" of the cognitive dissonance sown by your stylist...

Always bear in mind that stylists have potential conflicts of interest.  Their job, quite literally, is to convince people to part with their money (the more you part with, the better for them).  This is not intended to be an indictment of stylists in general, just a precaution that the things they tell you may have more to do with them keeping their eye on their personal "bottom line" than to do with being truthful.

The only evidentiary study I'm aware of (regarding men's preference for women's hair length) was performed at Florida State University.  Here's a link to it (go to page 4 of the PDF):

http://www.psychology.sunysb.edu/psychology/news/newsletter/newsletter5.pdf

Most (but not all) of the men I have talked with on the subject prefer long hair to short; and mostly mid-back to waist-length, or longer.  I've only known (or known of) a few men who prefer short hair on women.  There are certainly fans of short hair in the Short Hair forum, and some also participate in the Celebrities forum.

There are probably a few men who like women being defiant, but I think there are lots of men who like strong women.  There is a difference.

I don't understand your stylist's comments.  Why would men prefer women to defy traditional definitions of femininity?  Aside from their personalities, men like women that look attractive - and for most men, long hair definitely enhances a woman's appearance.

In general, I think people are more daring and self-confident when they don't feel pressured to do something they don't want to do.  If you want long hair and don't feel attractive with it short, then you will probably be more daring and self-confident with long hair.

One more thing - the notion of long hair being inappropriate for "older" people is a myth.  I know of many women who are in their 40's and beyond who have beautiful long, long hair -- and they look great.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote anne6000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 15 2006 at 11:38am
One thing that I've constantly been told by people (especially stylists) is that men are more attracted to women with short  hair because the short hair defies the traditional definition of femininity, so that means that the woman is more confident and daring.  Although I don't agree, I suppose in theory, it may make sense.
 
However, in practice, think about the vast majority of women you see in public places like grocery stores, doctor's offices, driver's license places, and things like that.  What length of hair do the majority of women (at least in the US) have?  I've traveled the US from each coast and have been to many places.  Completely objectively, I can say that the vast majority of women (not counting teenage girls, who do tend to have longer hair) have hair above collar length.  Short hair IS the norm in society.  I'm not criticizing that, but I'm just making an observation.
 
So, how can people say that short hair makes a woman appear more daring and self-confident when not only do the majority of women have that short hair, but almost every guy I know seems to prefer long hair on women?
 
I know that the statement was said to me in an effort to convince me to cut my hair, but I've also read the same thing in various places about how men are attracted to women with short hair because of the "confident" factor.
 
Yet, I just do not see that at all.  Does anyone else? 
 
What prompted this post is that yesterday, I had a treat and had a manicure at a salon.  The manicurist, also a stylist, had short hair, not ultra short, but just regular short, like most women.  My appointment had nothing to do with hair, yet out of the blue she made the comment.  Why?  Was she envious of my longer hair (my hair isn't even that long!)?  Or, did she think that my hair was inappropriate for my age?
 
I'm really baffled by the comments linking short hair with confidence and daring.  Since most women have short hair, it seems to me that the people with long hair (especially guys!) are the more confident and daring ones.
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