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What should hair sites be for?

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andy View Drop Down
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    Posted: January 11 2000 at 8:56pm
Hi everybody,I thought we might broach a contentious topic here (like we don't anyway) and discuss the issue of hair fetish sites.I swift trawl though the hair sites on the internet will reveal that a lot are more about ringing folk's sexual bells rather than about hairstyles 'per se'. These are either of the 'super long' or 'cutting and shaving' kind (some of the latter I reckon trancend the acceptable and enter the realm of the sordid.So what do you folks reckon to all this? The Andrea Dworkin/Catherine McKinnon definition of pornography says (and I'm paraphrasing here) that it is representations of people in inhuman or degrading circumstances for the purposes of sexual stimulation. Some of these sites would conform to this. Others don't seem to wrap their heads around the simple fact that some (most?) women have long hair because they like it and not for the benefit of others.So my question is - what to you folks think? How do you feel about hair being portrayed in this context? I reckon we could have some really lively and polemical posts on this one!andy
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Hi Andy,I hope you got my message over at the personals board- I think my posting wasn't wrote out the way I wanted it to sound.Anyway, I think you have a point here. If they would just say what they are instead of pretending to be something else, then you know what your in for if you go to that particular site. Not that if say a long hair site is for fetishists that it always means that it will be offensive to just look at, picture wise. I certainly would like to know if any sexual content (not just pictures, but postings or comments of that nature)by fetishists are going to be available to see so I can avoid it.What bothers me about some sites about long hair is that if you have short hair or can't grow your hair too long the implication is (or outright statement sometimes)is that you are less attractive. I have derriere length hair myself, but this statement(or implication)annoys me. Obviously there are a great many good-looking women with short hair-Lorrie Morgan's hair of a few years back comes to mind. Also, Pat Benatar as well.If a woman can't grow her hair real long for some reason I'm sure these statements/implications can hurt their feelings and may make their self-esteem plummet, especially teenagers.I'm glad there are sites that cater to all hair lengths, showing a variety of styles.Holly
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I am curious. Does anyone believe that the Hair Boutique has hidden fetish content?I have been telling all my students to visit Hair Boutique to see the various styles and hair info but am now a little alarmed that I might have missed something? I am a high school teacher and try to steer my students to the safe sites.I did notice that in the Links section there are some sites that are marked as "Adults Only" but now I am wondering.I have visited The Long Hair Site and while it claims to not be a hair fetish site, I feel that there is a lot there that may be borderline?How do you tell the difference?Tina> Hi Andy,> I hope you got my message over at the personals board-> I think my posting wasn't wrote out the way I wanted> it to sound.> Anyway, I think you have a point here. If they would> just say what they are instead of pretending to be> something else, then you know what your in for if you> go to that particular site. Not that if say a long> hair site is for fetishists that it always means that> it will be offensive to just look at, picture wise. I> certainly would like to know if any sexual content> (not just pictures, but postings or comments of that> nature)by fetishists are going to be available to see> so I can avoid it.> What bothers me about some sites about long hair is> that if you have short hair or can't grow your hair> too long the implication is (or outright statement> sometimes)is that you are less attractive. I have> derriere length hair myself, but this statement(or> implication)annoys me. Obviously there are a great> many good-looking women with short hair-Lorrie> Morgan's hair of a few years back comes to mind. Also,> Pat Benatar as well.> If a woman can't grow her hair real long for some> reason I'm sure these statements/implications can hurt> their feelings and may make their self-esteem plummet,> especially teenagers.> I'm glad there are sites that cater to all hair> lengths, showing a variety of styles.> Holly
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Diane from Canada View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Diane from Canada Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2000 at 8:56pm
> Hi Andy,> I hope you got my message over at the personals board-> I think my posting wasn't wrote out the way I wanted> it to sound.> Anyway, I think you have a point here. If they would> just say what they are instead of pretending to be> something else, then you know what your in for if you> go to that particular site. Not that if say a long> hair site is for fetishists that it always means that> it will be offensive to just look at, picture wise. I> certainly would like to know if any sexual content> (not just pictures, but postings or comments of that> nature)by fetishists are going to be available to see> so I can avoid it.> What bothers me about some sites about long hair is> that if you have short hair or can't grow your hair> too long the implication is (or outright statement> sometimes)is that you are less attractive. I have> derriere length hair myself, but this statement(or> implication)annoys me. Obviously there are a great> many good-looking women with short hair-Lorrie> Morgan's hair of a few years back comes to mind. Also,> Pat Benatar as well.> If a woman can't grow her hair real long for some> reason I'm sure these statements/implications can hurt> their feelings and may make their self-esteem plummet,> especially teenagers.> I'm glad there are sites that cater to all hair> lengths, showing a variety of styles.> HollyHello Andy:As human being we tend to have an attraction for something . It can be hair, or feet, or legs etc. You have the idea.Personally I have never been to those sites that you are talking about. I do participant on one that supports the fact I have long hair .Dear Holly:I am trying to figure you out. I believe you certainly are getting your message wrong. Are you trying to start a flame?I participant on a long hair site and I have seen you on a mailing list. It's base is to support women who have long hair. Noone has ever said that short hair is not attractive and the main purpose on the site I am thinking of is to support women who have long hair period. There are many sites for diffirent needs. I really don't think it is kind or wise to knock them down on Karen and Jeff's site or give the wrong impression of certain purposes.Diane from Canada
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> I am curious. Does anyone believe that the Hair> Boutique has hidden fetish content?> I have been telling all my students to visit Hair> Boutique to see the various styles and hair info but> am now a little alarmed that I might have missed> something? I am a high school teacher and try to steer> my students to the safe sites.> I did notice that in the Links section there are some> sites that are marked as "Adults Only" but> now I am wondering.> I have visited The Long Hair Site and while it claims> to not be a hair fetish site, I feel that there is a> lot there that may be borderline?> How do you tell the difference?> TinaPersonally I dislike this topic because it is misleading.Sure on the internet there are sites that are fetishes and one would be to a real dummy not to recognize them. The webmasters don't hide that fact. No matter how hard some webmaster try to make their sites clean like Karen and Jeff or The long hair site there are some people who do come along and have a fetish. I know that Frank on the Long hair site really controls that because he just want to celebrate the beauty of long hair period. Maybe Tiny if you have some concern about his site you should email him. Personally I been on that site for a long time and I love it.to answers Andy questions :Well Andy it is the internet and you need to steer away from areas where you don't care to go. Personally I never been to the sites you mention and you wouldn't catch me there.To Hollly:I don't care for flaming nor I am going into a debate over this .The site you are participating on that has a mailing list is a site for long hair and to support us women that have long hair and nothing more . There is no messages to says short is not attractive. I wish you would be careful in your wording especially when you mention a long hair site which is the name of the The long hair site and some people on this site might think that we are bashing their rights for short hair which is not true and I am more than positive that many of the women will say the same thing including Karen.I am not going to make any more comments on this. I hate using this site for this discussion. It is tasteless.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Holly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2000 at 8:56pm
Diane,First of all, what are you talking about? Who mentioned Frank's site? It wasn't mentioned at all so stop putting "words in my mouth".Also, who is starting a flame here? You make it sound like I am. I was just responding to a topic, but you are making me out to the world that I'm starting a flame.Also your making that implication to Andy as well.Obviously people are allowed to discuss topics within reason here.There are so many sites on long hair anyways, why would you think about Frank's site unless perhaps I hit a nerve?Is there something said over there that would make you think I meant his site, meaning the implications/statements that I talked about that are on some sites? Rememeber, you brought him up, not me.I think it's a lot of nerve to say I need to "Watch my wording" when you are plainly saying that I said things that I did not.We both know what this is really about, and really you should e-mail me personally (all e-mails are welcomed) if you have a problem with me. Anything that goes on at the mailing list should be kept there, and not dragged over here to "Hair Boutique". What you're angry about has nothing to do with this topic.I find it interesting that you think flaming is tasteless, yet you outrightly started one here with me, by saying all these untrue things about me that anybody can see I didn't say.This is supposed to be fun, but stimulating discussion. Really there are more important things to get upset about, so try not to get so angry, either here or at the "other place".Before this gets misconstrued as well, I DO NOT think that HB is a fetish site. I know Diane, you never said that I did. However, after reading Tina's question, I wanted to be sure I commented on that before you said anything else about me. I'm sure Karen knows this as well, as I've personally offered any assistance I could to this site and we have e-mailed each other personally in the past.Holly
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andy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2000 at 8:56pm
Hi all,Well, I said we could have some polemical posts about this didn't I? However are we so unable to discuss the issue that we make accusations of flaming if anybody expresses strong but reasoned views? I reckon that we can disagree politely and reasonably in a non-flaming way.I think Holly is raising a good point here - the issue of covert message content. We all agree that there is a problem with fashion publications which only use very slim women, because they send the message that 'thin = attractive' and therefore 'not thin = unattractive'. If anybody doubts how much damage this covert lie does then ask anybody with a background in anorexia care!All Holly is saying is that maybe this is another message that is subliminally sent (have I got you wrong here Holly?), not that there is any intentional desire to offend or make people feel small. You will notice that I didn't make any accusations about any site in particular by the way, and neither did Holly.How do you tell the difference Tina? That's rather the question isn't it?I totally agree with the idea that the idea of staying away from material you consider offensive is a laudible one, and one I would agree with. However, what if one of your kids accidentally visited a site with sexual content because it was not obvious that that was what it was, or out of plain curiosity. The idea of personal responsibility to choose content is fine for adults - do you think is also a successful choice for allowing children to avoid unsavoury sites?andy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Holly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2000 at 8:57pm
Diane,I said "Some sites about long hair". That is not the name of any hair site that I know of. Tina mentioned that site, I didn't. Isn't an apology in order here, and one at the mailing list, too? I think it is.Holly
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Hi, Andy!First, I don't think that Hair Boutique is a hair fetish sight by any strain of the imagination. However, some of the notes in the Personals Forum in the past have been borderline to outright fetish which is not for me. In fact, that's why I changed my handle from Jade to Jade21 to distinguish myself from someone in there who also posted to the Original Hair Talk forum. A fetish is long past someone who likes or adores long hair.Second, as to the long hair fetish sights, I have been taken to them unknowingly while searching for things like traditional long hair or even hair products. I do not like to see women or men placed in degrading situations. I am aware that people make a profit on such businesses, but I do not want to see that or other degrading sites. That's my choice. To me, the ones which are not clearly obvious are the worst ones, like the ones which you might encounter on another search. It corrupts your choice. Also, in many ways, for me, I feel that there are just some things that I don't need to see. It sort of shoots another hole in certain segments of humanity. People need love, kindness and consideration, not degredation.Lastly, Andy, one thing that really disturbs me. I don't know if you saw my post about the man on the train who tugged my hair et. al. Your question here sort of touched a chord about something which I have been thinking lately. It really scares me that some men have a true fetish with really long hair. I've read about Holly's experiences in France, her husband's advice about taxis and all of it is disturbing.What it really comes down to is this. I enjoy growing my hair and I am really amazed by it myself. I have also liked reading about other people's experiences for things that work from hair styles to products and also the funny stories. It's my choice, but I also live with some of the consequences. The experience that I had on the train recently was like no other. Words are one thing, but actual unwanted touching is a whole different thing. Just about all the women in my family going back for generations have had long hair. Not one of them has had such an experience. Imagine your hair being a drawing card for predators. That's quite something, don't you think?I am glad that you posted your question. I don't think your intention was to incite or imply anything.Bye for now,Jade21> I thought we might broach a contentious topic here> (like we don't anyway) and discuss the issue of hair> fetish sites.> I swift trawl though the hair sites on the internet> will reveal that a lot are more about ringing folk's> sexual bells rather than about hairstyles 'per se'.> These are either of the 'super long' or 'cutting and> shaving' kind (some of the latter I reckon trancend> the acceptable and enter the realm of the sordid.> So what do you folks reckon to all this? The Andrea> Dworkin/Catherine McKinnon definition of pornography> says (and I'm paraphrasing here) that it is> representations of people in inhuman or degrading> circumstances for the purposes of sexual stimulation.> Some of these sites would conform to this. Others> don't seem to wrap their heads around the simple fact> that some (most?) women have long hair because they> like it and not for the benefit of others.> So my question is - what to you folks think? How do> you feel about hair being portrayed in this context? I> reckon we could have some really lively and polemical> posts on this one!> andy
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Tina,I just wanted to say before it gets misconstrued by anyone that although I mentioned in my post to Diane that you mentioned TLHS, that doesn't mean I think you were wrong in asking a question about it, or even commenting your opinon about it.Just wanted to be sure I was clear on that point.Thanks,Holly
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> Diane,> I said "Some sites about long hair". That is> not the name of any hair site that I know of. Tina> mentioned that site, I didn't. Isn't an apology in> order here, and one at the mailing list, too? I think> it is.> HollyI never came across any long hair sites that knocks down women with short hair and that they say that short is not attractive. YOu made it sound like some site bash short hair women and I never heard or read any of those thoughts.That part I didn't appreciate that some people would have been mislead because every site has its purpose and it would have created some bad feelings.I have nothing against you. IN fact I have defended you in the past. I have no more comments.
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> Diane,> I said "Some sites about long hair". That is> not the name of any hair site that I know of. Tina> mentioned that site, I didn't. Isn't an apology in> order here, and one at the mailing list, too? I think> it is.> HollyI never came across any long hair sites that knocks down women with short hair and that they say that short is not attractive. YOu made it sound like some site bash short hair women and I never heard or read any of those thoughts.That part I didn't appreciate that some people would have been mislead because every site has its purpose and it would have created some bad feelings.I have nothing against you. IN fact I have defended you in the past. I have no more comments. I call it the way it is and that is all. I have no more comments.
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> Hi everybody,> I thought we might broach a contentious topic here> (like we don't anyway) and discuss the issue of hair> fetish sites.> I swift trawl though the hair sites on the internet> will reveal that a lot are more about ringing folk's> sexual bells rather than about hairstyles 'per se'.> These are either of the 'super long' or 'cutting and> shaving' kind (some of the latter I reckon trancend> the acceptable and enter the realm of the sordid.> So what do you folks reckon to all this? The Andrea> Dworkin/Catherine McKinnon definition of pornography> says (and I'm paraphrasing here) that it is> representations of people in inhuman or degrading> circumstances for the purposes of sexual stimulation.> Some of these sites would conform to this. Others> don't seem to wrap their heads around the simple fact> that some (most?) women have long hair because they> like it and not for the benefit of others.> So my question is - what to you folks think? How do> you feel about hair being portrayed in this context? I> reckon we could have some really lively and polemical> posts on this one!> andyDear Andy:Just so that there isn't any misunderstanding I would like to say to you that your topic is interesting . My concern is that some people might start thinking that all hair sites are fetishes which they are not. Many web master work very hard to make their sites decent and at times they don't always have control on who might post. The other concern I had and brought it up with Holly is that I really don't appreciate the message that long hair sites tend to give the message that short hair women are not attractive. This is not true and this would create hurt feelings.I never experience this at all.The third issue is just because someone has a passion for hair it doesn't mean they have a fetish. There is a huge diffirence and at time it is misunderstood.
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> Diane,> First of all, what are you talking about? Who> mentioned Frank's site? It wasn't mentioned at all so> stop putting "words in my mouth".> Also, who is starting a flame here? You make it sound> like I am. I was just responding to a topic, but you> are making me out to the world that I'm starting a> flame.> Also your making that implication to Andy as well.> Obviously people are allowed to discuss topics within> reason here.> There are so many sites on long hair anyways, why> would you think about Frank's site unless perhaps I> hit a nerve?> Is there something said over there that would make you> think I meant his site, meaning the> implications/statements that I talked about that are> on some sites? Rememeber, you brought him up, not me.> I think it's a lot of nerve to say I need to> "Watch my wording" when you are plainly> saying that I said things that I did not.> We both know what this is really about, and really you> should e-mail me personally (all e-mails are welcomed)> if you have a problem with me. Anything that goes on> at the mailing list should be kept there, and not> dragged over here to "Hair Boutique". What> you're angry about has nothing to do with this topic.> I find it interesting that you think flaming is> tasteless, yet you outrightly started one here with> me, by saying all these untrue things about me that> anybody can see I didn't say.> This is supposed to be fun, but stimulating> discussion. Really there are more important things to> get upset about, so try not to get so angry, either> here or at the "other place".> Before this gets misconstrued as well, I DO NOT think> that HB is a fetish site. I know Diane, you never said> that I did. However, after reading Tina's question, I> wanted to be sure I commented on that before you said> anything else about me. I'm sure Karen knows this as> well, as I've personally offered any assistance I> could to this site and we have e-mailed each other> personally in the past.> HollyDear Holly:I seriously have no idea what you mean by saying I am angry with you about something else. I am not the one that post things like flaming is fun etc. so really Holly if you have something to say to me spill the beans and email me.
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> Diane,> I said "Some sites about long hair". That is> not the name of any hair site that I know of. Tina> mentioned that site, I didn't. Isn't an apology in> order here, and one at the mailing list, too? I think> it is.> HollyDear Holly:I have lots of respect for web sites okay. If for some reason I misunderstood you than I am sorry . I also read your thoughts on another comment and I am not attacking you for other reasons nor I owe any apologies on a mailing list etc. so I don't appreciate you adding things that don't belong. If I had a problem with you I would say it directly as I am known to do so. I am honest and to the point.So I would prefer being in peace and I do not care to participant in any flames or misrespresent anything of the sort.It is up to you now to make peace .
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Hi Andy,> ...a lot of... hair fetish sites... on the internet... are more about> ringing folk's sexual bells rather than about hairstyles 'per se'.> ... These are either of the 'super long' or 'cutting and shaving' kind> (some of the latter I reckon trancend the acceptable and enter the> realm of the sordid.Merriam-Webster's (m-w.com) unedited definition of "pornography" is:1 : the depiction of erotic behavior (as in pictures or writing)intended to cause sexual excitement2 : material (as books or a photograph) that depicts erotic behaviorand is intended to cause sexual excitement3 : the depiction of acts in a sensational manner so as to arouse aquick intense emotional reactionThe recurring theme in each of these defintions is the word "behavior"or "acts." Any site that shows static pictures of any hair style orlength -- that is not simultaneously depicting "erotic behavior" --cannot by definition be described as being pornographic. A site thatdepicts action/behavior, as is typically the case on some cuttingsites that show a progression of a haircut, could be seem aspornographic according to definition number 3 above. Storiesdescribing said acts *could* also be seen as being pornographic inthis light.> ...representations of people in inhuman or degrading circumstances> for the purposes of sexual stimulation. Some of these sites would> conform to thisYes. Sadly, I see it this way too.Dave
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2000 at 8:57pm
> What bothers me about some sites about long hair is> that if you have short hair or can't grow your hair> too long the implication is (or outright statement> sometimes)is that you are less attractive. I have> derriere length hair myself, but this statement(or> implication)annoys me.Holly,I'm not aware of such implications or outright statements. Can youoffer examples?Obviously there are a great> many good-looking women with short hair-Lorrie> Morgan's hair of a few years back comes to mind. Also,> Pat Benatar as well.Are there not sites that show pictures of these women? (I believethere are).Dave
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2000 at 8:57pm
Tina,> I am curious. Does anyone believe that the Hair> Boutique has hidden fetish content?I don't believe so.> I feel that there is a lot there that may be borderline?> How do you tell the difference?I don't think that any website that shows pictures of (fully clothed!)people with any given hair length (long as at tlhs, or medium or shortat other sites) qualifies as "fetish." The only "borderline" concern(I can think of at the moment) may be (as in my reply to Andy) about aseries of pictures of a given person undergoing sudden (drastic) changesin length, which may be intended to elicit a "quick intense emotionalreaction."Dave
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2000 at 8:57pm
> Lastly, Andy, one thing that really disturbs me. I> don't know if you saw my post about the man on the> train who tugged my hair et. al. Your question here> sort of touched a chord about something which I have> been thinking lately. It really scares me that some> men have a true fetish with really long hair.Actually Jade, I wouldn't assume that the man who harassed you necessarilyhad a hair fetish; rather, I would say that he (being pathological) choseto use your hair as a target or as a means to be able to "get to you."> Words are one thing, but actual unwanted touching is a> whole different thing. Imagine> your hair being a drawing card for predators.The motivation of such pathological individuals may have to do with theirhaving hostile feelings toward women in general, and since long hair issymbolic of a woman's beauty, it is irrationally seen (by these men) assymbolic of what they dislike.Just speculating...Dave
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2000 at 8:57pm
Well, Andy, you raise another interesting issue. Basically with thosefashion publications, the message is that if you don't buy what they(their editors or advertisers) sell, then you are somehow inadequate.I agree that this can be hazardous to the psychological well-being ofthe reader. Yes it's difficult to escape that trap, but the choice toselectively (or completely) disregard the pitch does exist.Dave
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