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Rod View Drop Down
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    Posted: August 24 2004 at 9:18pm
I see here on this board and elsewhere on the web. I see it off the Internet too.

Some woman (or man)wants to cut her long hair short and people, especially guys, get all upset. Now, if she asks you if you think she'd look better with short hair, that's one thing. But I'm talking about someone expressing a desire.

It's as if the respondant owns her. You don't even know her. You won't be diminished if she cuts her hair. She wouldn't be bringing it up if she didn't want to cut it. People with long hair who don't want to cut it don't say anything.

Sometimes the reason is wanting a change. Sometimes she feels long hair is too much work. Do you try to convince her it isn't, as if you know how much work she wants? Sometimes the person is a new mom. Unless you've been a new mom, you have no idea how much work that is. Your kids are more important than your hair.

I see this on the celeb board. People are upset if some celeb cuts her hair. It's one thing to think she looks prettier with long hair, but being upset. Why?

Of course, the long hair fans aren't the only ones. There are short haired people who get upset if someone decides to grow out their hair. When I said that it seemed celebs were growing out super short pixies, a couple of people got upset. I never said my preference or what the situation was with anyone other than celebs. Just made an observation.

Do you feel compelled to tell someone to cut it/not cut it/grow it/not grow it? Why? It's one thing to say you think she should cut style A or style B but another to proclaim that when a woman cuts off her long hair she looks like a soccer mom.

Opinions are great. Have one. Let it all hang out on the Internet. What I'm wondering is whether you feel adament about telling someone to cut it or not cut it and why you have to express it that way?
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Kuroneko View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kuroneko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 25 2004 at 5:14am
I think the universal explanation to this is just that people feel the other (aka wrong) side has just won one. People might have specific qualifiers beyond that, but that's the basic answer.
For me personally, it's just that being raised by such ultra-conservative, old-fashioned parents led me to completely rebel, so for me now, long hair represents old-fashioned and conservative views about weak, submissive women, where short hair represents modern views with strong women who can be the equals of men. Most people won't agree with that, but that's how I've come to see things based on my upbringing and reactions to being brought up so poorly. That's why I feel so disappointed if a short-haired woman grows her hair, because to me it's like she is taking on a weaker, more submissive, traditional sort of role.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Debbie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 25 2004 at 8:41am
Good thread Rod! I just hope that my answer doesnot sound stupid!!!! I believe that a woman - no matter WHO she is has a right to do whatever she wants to with her hair. A celebrity, a new mom, a woman just starting to find herself, ect. She is an individual first. Some women grow out their hair to please their man, and that is fine! Other cut off their hair to please their man and that is fine also! Women are human beings also. I have been long haired, short haired and no hair at all. I donot believe that anyone has the right to tell a lady how to wear her hair. After all, they donot tell them how to do anything else. They may suggest it but the final choice is always going to be theirs! I hope this made sense! Debbie
There is more to life than hair...Come on---Go get a life!!!!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 25 2004 at 9:07am
Originally posted by Kuroneko Kuroneko wrote:

long hair represents old-fashioned and conservative views about weak, submissive women, where short hair represents modern views with strong women who can be the equals of men.


I'm sure there are some women who are weak and submissive who have long hair, but that's hardly applicible for most women. Does it really bother you that much that someone else decides to grow her hair out? Can't it just be that she wants a change or likes herself with long hair? No one else has "won one." You keeping your hair the way you want is you winning one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote duke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 26 2004 at 3:34am
Sometimes a poster asks for an opinion. I oblige, saying what I think would look good. It's up to them to make the final decision. I would never pressure a poster into wearing their hair in a way they did not want, or not adopting a hairstyle they ultimately decided they wanted to get.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hairalways Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2004 at 10:42pm
Kuroneko - I can understand your position of women who "go to the other side" and grow their hair out...but what about the women who may have tried to wear thir hair short and it just didn't look good? Maybe they are extremely independant, aggressive career women. But they look like **** with short hair?

j

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eKatherine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2004 at 8:28pm
Women usually have difficulty growing out their hair, as they are usually bombarded by messages like Kuroneko's. They are pressured by their friends, relatives, and superiors to cut and submissively follow the directives of self-appointed gurus in the fashion industry. At the same time we are expected to desexualize ourselves to compete in the work world.

I see so many women struggling with difficult to maintain cuts, damaged by color and curl treatments, sinking big bucks month after month, and I can only think how much easier their lives could be if they were able to allow themselves to figure out what their hair wants to do and just do it.


Just looking for a few good hair slaves - is that too much to ask?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kuroneko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 31 2004 at 5:07am
I think I see society's message very much in the reverse of this. The way I see it, society expects that every woman, no matter who she is, what position she holds in life or the workplace, even if she holds a very powerful position or works in a male-oriented business, is still expected to remain as feminine and sexually appealing to men as possible. Women who don't comply are seen as butch (or often, a very similar-looking word I'm not allowed to use here :-P ) and undesirable. She's accused of trying to be a man.
Of course, on the other side of the coin, women who try to hold powerful positions or jobs in male-oriented fields, but they do try to still be as feminine as possible, they're never going to be taken seriously. It's like women are screwed no matter what they do, in this particular case.
Post editing to answer a couple of other points in the thread. . .
It doesn't bother me personally if just any woman grows her hair. I know a lot of people here talk about how they never really liked a celebrity, but it really bothers them that she's cut her hair, and I don't understand that. If I don't care about someone, I'm pretty unaffected by whatever she does with her hair. But if I have a personal fondness for someone or see her as a role model, that's when it bothers me, because then I feel a certain amount of personal attachment.
Possibly contrary to the last statement, but I'm always full of contradictions anyway. . . It does bother me just in general that it's still considered the most acceptable for women to have long hair, though. It kinda goes back to my originally-posted statement, about how women are still expected to be as feminine as possible and are seen in a bad light if they're not. But I also know it's not only women this happens to, because some men are still looked down on if they have long hair or earrings or whatever. Society is just still too stuck on traditional gender roles, I think, even though I will admit it has relaxed a lot from what it used to be. So, yeah, we are progressing, just I'm impatient, I guess, and it's not happening quickly enough for me :-P .
I guess I can accept the idea that some women might just look bad in short hair, because I know for sure there are women who just look bad in long :-P . But my issue with that is, most of the women who think they look bad in short hair are ones who tried one style once, usually just a boring, blunt bob, and decided from that, that short hair didn't suit them. I don't see how people could reach a conclusion about what length does or doesn't suit them based on just one style.



Originally posted by eKatherine eKatherine wrote:

Women usually have difficulty growing out their hair, as they are usually bombarded by messages like Kuroneko's. They are pressured by their friends, relatives, and superiors to cut and submissively follow the directives of self-appointed gurus in the fashion industry. At the same time we are expected to desexualize ourselves to compete in the work world.

I see so many women struggling with difficult to maintain cuts, damaged by color and curl treatments, sinking big bucks month after month, and I can only think how much easier their lives could be if they were able to allow themselves to figure out what their hair wants to do and just do it.
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Originally posted by Kuroneko Kuroneko wrote:

I think I see society's message very much in the reverse of this. The way I see it, society expects that every woman, no matter who she is, what position she holds in life or the workplace, even if she holds a very powerful position or works in a male-oriented business, is still expected to remain as feminine and sexually appealing to men as possible. Women who don't comply are seen as butch (or often, a very similar-looking word I'm not allowed to use here :-P ) and undesirable. She's accused of trying to be a man.
Of course, on the other side of the coin, women who try to hold powerful positions or jobs in male-oriented fields, but they do try to still be as feminine as possible, they're never going to be taken seriously. It's like women are screwed no matter what they do, in this particular case.

Actually, the way I see it is that a woman who is attractive is expected to tart herself up, to make herself as beautiful as possible at all times, regardless of how much effort it takes, while a woman who is older, or less than classically beautiful, is not seen to be female. Long hair challenges this perception, and some people are uncomfortable with the idea of granny seeing herself as feminine.
Quote guess I can accept the idea that some women might just look bad in short hair, because I know for sure there are women who just look bad in long :-P . But my issue with that is, most of the women who think they look bad in short hair are ones who tried one style once, usually just a boring, blunt bob, and decided from that, that short hair didn't suit them. I don't see how people could reach a conclusion about what length does or doesn't suit them based on just one style.

You seem to be saying that it's ok if I want long hair, but the only way I could have made that decision is to have short hair all my life, and then not like it. Very few shorthairs have had long hair at all, let alone for any length of time. How could they determine by that same criteria that it was not right for them?

And it's only ok for women who don't look good in short hair to have long hair? What about personal preference? I see lots of women with really odd looking short hairstyles, ok, freakin' bizarre, who would look lots better and more serious with a classic style.

I wear my hair up at work all the time, and it looks very professional. How many people who have started to grow their hair long once, but gave up before getting there, have experienced classy updos? If not, how can they say this is not an appropriate style for them?


Just looking for a few good hair slaves - is that too much to ask?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kuroneko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2004 at 2:30am
The idea that older women aren't seen as beautiful is being challenged to some degree, like how there are more celebs still being considered beautiful into middle age. Unfortunately, to do so, most of them still resort to Botox or plastic surgery to try to keep a more youthful look. That leads to very plastic-looking people like Nicole Kidman, which I think is actually sad, because she and a lot of other actresses her age, used to be pretty until they did that to themselves, and now they just look unnatural.
Older women have problems keeping up long hair, though, such as thinning, or the fact older women's hair can turn drier and scragglier, and look kinda witch-like. The woman who can have thick, silky hair well into old age is rare.
I was speaking in response to the person who posted something to the effect that a woman night be very strong and independent, but just think she looks bad in short hair. To that, I replied that most women who think they don't look good in short hair have often only tried one style, and you can't judge by that. To say that implies that the only way a woman could want long hair is if she's tried every short style first is silly. I was simply contradicting one of the common excuses women use not to try out new hairstyles.
Most short-haired women have never had long hair? That's a strange statement, as most females I've ever seen grow up with long hair through most or all of their childhood through teens or twenties. One of the reasons some girls cut theirs once they reach college or get out on their own, is because they've had it the whole time they were growing up, and see it as too childish.
Again with the twisting of the words. . . I didn't say it's only okay for women who look bad in short hair to have long. Once again, I only said that the women who use as an excuse that they "don't look good in short hair", when they haven't tried it out enough to know, were using a flimsy excuse. *shrugs* Personally, I think every woman could find a short hairstyle that'll look good on her, if she tries. But I guess logically I'm supposed to believe that if some women can just look bad in long hair, there might possibly be some who'll just look bad in short. . . a distant maybe. . .
Bleh, and there are just as many really bizzarre long styles, like '70s wings, massive '80s perms, the really long and stick-straight hair that parts in the middle that I hate so much, etc. You don't know how many times I see women with really bad long hair and think how much better they would look if they got rid of it. Most things that could be said by one side, could be easily turned around against the other, just the same way.
*shrugs* And most women don't do much with their hair anyway, no matter what length it is. How many long-hairs have you seen who do nothing but switch off between a ponytail and just letting it hang there? You work on preaching to all the long-hairs about how many updos you can think for them to do, and I'll just continue reminding short-hairs of the joys of hair accessories, and maybe everyone will be a bit less boring :-P .


Originally posted by eKatherine eKatherine wrote:

Actually, the way I see it is that a woman who is attractive is expected to tart herself up, to make herself as beautiful as possible at all times, regardless of how much effort it takes, while a woman who is older, or less than classically beautiful, is not seen to be female. Long hair challenges this perception, and some people are uncomfortable with the idea of granny seeing herself as feminine.

You seem to be saying that it's ok if I want long hair, but the only way I could have made that decision is to have short hair all my life, and then not like it. Very few shorthairs have had long hair at all, let alone for any length of time. How could they determine by that same criteria that it was not right for them?

And it's only ok for women who don't look good in short hair to have long hair? What about personal preference? I see lots of women with really odd looking short hairstyles, ok, freakin' bizarre, who would look lots better and more serious with a classic style.

I wear my hair up at work all the time, and it looks very professional. How many people who have started to grow their hair long once, but gave up before getting there, have experienced classy updos? If not, how can they say this is not an appropriate style for them?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote joec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 08 2004 at 9:14pm
Lighten up Rambo!
Every time the subject of hair length on women comes up. We get this sermon from angry bulldykes.Who are unhappy with their own lot in life.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kuroneko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 12 2004 at 3:01am
Why do you assume that anyone who doesn't just adore long hair must be an inherently butchy, angry, unhappy person? And for that matter, why assume that all lesbians must be angry and unhappy? Not every woman feels the need for long hair to feel attractive or to have a sense of identity, and certainly not every woman needs a male to be happy :-P . There are plenty who are much happier without.



Originally posted by joec joec wrote:

Lighten up Rambo!
Every time the subject of hair length on women comes up. We get this sermon from angry bulldykes.Who are unhappy with their own lot in life.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveDecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 12 2004 at 12:35pm
Hi Rod,

Great question!

If/when someone I know tells me they want to cut their long hair short, the first thing I want to know is "why?" And so I ask. Usually it's for some "technical" reason, such as "bored and want a change from the everyday long-and-loose" (not because they no longer like having long hair), in which case I offer advice I think may help address their concern. BTW, I believe that having long hair myself (and knowing well most of the issues related to its growth and maintenance) gives my opinion added credibility regarding such "technical" issues. Anyway, in two instances I can recall, when the response to my question ("why do
you want to go short?") was basically silence, the women cut their hair short very soon thereafter. I imagine the silence was an indication that their mind was firmly set on going shorter, and didn't want to hear anything which might sway their determination to do so. Oddly, just the other day, one of these two women saw me and complimented my braid; a brief conversation ensued in which she confessed that she very much wanted her long hair back. I feel for those who suffer "buyer's remorse."

At the Celebs board, I notice expressions of dismay from both sides of the hair "aisle." I might guess that the dismay on the part of those-who-prefer-long may be more intensely felt because affecting a decision to go from long to short is more acute, whereas a decision to go from short to long is both extremely slow, and can be reversed, instantaneously, at any time.

For the hair-interested (which minimally includes everybody who visits hair websites), I think most like to see others have hair that is "attractive" (according to the personal tastes of the observer). Hair (and hairstyle) is a personal artistic expression. People like to see artistic expression that is pleasing to their eyes -- even if that "artistic expression" is the hair of somebody else. In a sense it is natural to become displeased when someone they know (or know of) diminishes (again, in their own eyes) the beauty of that expression. But those feelings do not grant them permission to express them (or other related thoughts or advice) to the person involved.

Oh, and getting back to your question (or comments, at least one them), I think it's better that people do not pressure others into changing their hair length or style.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 13 2004 at 9:33am
Dave, if someone says, "I'm going to cut my hair. Do you think this will look good on me?," they aren't asking whether they should cut their hair. Thus, people saying "no, don't cut your hair," is not only rude, but undermines the person. Certainly, it's a tough decision and they don't want to hear it's the wrong one.

Now, if they ask, "Do you think I should cut my hair?," they are fair game. Especially if they know your preference. I have friends who've asked me that and a couple who wouldn't. I have one who often talks to me about it, but never will. It's always their hair and my preference is irrelvant. I always try to encourage someone when they make a choice, because people want to be affirmed. It makes them feel better.

Celebs can "grow" their hair fast using extensions. See Kirsten Dunst. It's obvious what her choice is. I have my preference on her, and expressing that is what these boards are about. What gets to me is the sense of ownership people have when a woman they don't know (celeb or otherwise) cuts her hair or grows it long. Come on, people. It doesn't affect you.

As for buyer's remorse, isn't that part of life? If someone cuts wants to cut their hair short and then doesn't like it, I don't think they should regret it. They wanted it. How would they know if they didn't try it? Now, they can grow it out. It might take a while, but it will grow back. The only mistakes we truly own are our own.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote joec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 15 2004 at 7:59pm
Kernecko asks:
Why do you assume that anyone who doesn't just adore long hair must be an inherently butchy, angry, unhappy person? And for that matter, why assume that all lesbians must be angry and unhappy? Not every woman feels the need for long hair to feel attractive or to have a sense of identity, and certainly not every woman needs a male to be happy :-P . There are plenty who are much happier without.

I'll try to ansewer these #1 I do'nt assume that anyone who dos'nt adore long hair is butchy.
I assume you are since you have said so.
#2 I dont assume all Lesbians or gays are unhappy.If you read your own posts its obvious that you are.
I find it odd that the homosexal community call themselves gay wich used to mean happy untill they hijacked the word.Kind of like Peoples Democratic Republic of North Korea.Is anything but Democratic.If you have to shout your happy chances are your not.
Your posts show all kinds of bitterness unhappy with parents,men,womens roles,women with long hair,society the list could go on and on.
I hope I have ansewerd these question you asked.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveDecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2004 at 12:37pm
Originally posted by Rod Rod wrote:

Dave, if someone says, "I'm going to cut my hair. Do you think this will look good on me?," they aren't asking whether they should cut their hair. Thus, people saying "no, don't cut your hair," is not only rude, but undermines the person. Certainly, it's a tough decision and they don't want to hear it's the wrong one.

It sounds like you lecturing me. Why?

FWIW, I have never heard anybody say to me "I'm going to cut my hair. Do you think this will look good on me?" If I ever do, I will answer honestly. I'm not in the business of lying to others to affirm a decision which (at the time they ask it) is merely tentative. I would let them decide for themselves how to handle my opinion. After all, the person is presumably an adult, and "can handle the truth."
Originally posted by Rod Rod wrote:

Now, if they ask, "Do you think I should cut my hair?," they are fair game. Especially if they know your preference. I have friends who've asked me that and a couple who wouldn't. I have one who often talks to me about it, but never will. It's always their hair and my preference is irrelvant. I always try to encourage someone when they make a choice, because people want to be affirmed. It makes them feel better.

Hypothetically speaking (because, again, I have never heard that question asked of me), I agree that my opinion would (to me, anyway) seem to be irrelevant. But they asked for it, so it must be of some value. It's up to them to decide how much. And if someone were to flat out tell me that they are going to cut their hair, they indicate that their decision is firm. I might inquire "why," just as a curiosity. If the decision is based on a concern or issue which can be readily addressed or solved, I wouldn't hesitate to say so -- for their own benefit. Again, they can and will do what they want. Having additional information is never a bad thing.
Originally posted by Rod Rod wrote:

Celebs can "grow" their hair fast using extensions. See Kirsten Dunst. It's obvious what her choice is. I have my preference on her, and expressing that is what these boards are about. What gets to me is the sense of ownership people have when a woman they don't know (celeb or otherwise) cuts her hair or grows it long. Come on, people. It doesn't affect you.

I understand what you're saying. As I said before, I see evidence of it on the Celebs board, both ways. It gets tiring. I practice tolerance.
Originally posted by Rod Rod wrote:

As for buyer's remorse, isn't that part of life?

Yes. Is it not doing good service to help people avoid additional instances of it?
Originally posted by Rod Rod wrote:

If someone cuts wants to cut their hair short and then doesn't like it, I don't think they should regret it.

But, sometimes, they do. Just because you think they shouldn't, doesn't mean they necessarily won't experience that feeling.
Originally posted by Rod Rod wrote:

They wanted it. How would they know if they didn't try it?

Sometimes people don't think through the consequences of potential actions. If the basis for a decision can be objectively judged as flimsy, or the consequences (or rectification thereof) quite unpleasant, why not provide additional information which may help guide the person to making a more well-informed choice? I'm all in favor of people making well-informed decisions. [see our discussion on LoL]
Originally posted by Rod Rod wrote:

Now, they can grow it out. It might take a while, but it will grow back.

It will take awhile, and it will grow back (to the original length) if they wait for a number of years required for it... many years, in some cases.
Originally posted by Rod Rod wrote:

The only mistakes we truly own are our own.

?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2004 at 8:04am
I think the right thing to do is give the person asking what they want.. your opinion on how you think it would look on them... no more no less. I like change so that tends to mean cutting. I often find my self urging a person to do what I want rather than just giving my opinion on how I think is might look... which is all they ask for.
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Speaking of celebrities in the crux of change it's a bit more fundemental. I think that we all know that celebrities influence hair fashion. I think that a long hair lover fears that short hair is going to somehow become a trend and that the influence is going to create a rift between those who follow fashion and those who don't, or worse their certain someone is going to cave in to the whims of fashion and get a short haircut regardless of what he wants. Fundementally a short hair lover is afraid of the opposite.

Generally speaking I've found that a short hair lover is an iconoclast and a long hair lover a romantic idealist.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MenaceIISociety Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 29 2004 at 12:46pm
Originally posted by Carmichale Carmichale wrote:

Speaking of celebrities in the crux of change it's a bit more fundemental. I think that we all know that celebrities influence hair fashion. I think that a long hair lover fears that short hair is going to somehow become a trend and that the influence is going to create a rift between those who follow fashion and those who don't, or worse their certain someone is going to cave in to the whims of fashion and get a short haircut regardless of what he wants. Fundementally a short hair lover is afraid of the opposite.

Generally speaking I've found that a short hair lover is an iconoclast and a long hair lover a romantic idealist.
LMAO
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