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Styles on older women - man's perspective

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Jena View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2000 at 9:57pm
I wasn't going to respond because when some people get a notion in their heads, it doesn't matter what one says to refute it.> I don't see this at all. She's talking about a> "professional look"-not age. She made it> clear that age has nothing to do with it.Absolutely. People are free to wear their hair however they wish. But it's also fact that how a person wears his hair and clothes puts out an impression. Let's say you were going to court and the judge came out with loose, thick hair down to her waist and a big bow on top!! My first thought would be, "Oh wow, I've never been on Candid Camera before!" The same would hold true if the judge came out wearing fishnet stockings, 4" heels and a black leather mini-skirt. Even if she looks absolutely fantastic in it, it simply isn't appropriate office wear. I don't speak for everyone, but I can say with certainty that the majority of people would not find that look appropriate. These are called "unwritten rules." Sure, I like to push the rules myself! But completely overstepping them into the boundaries of bad taste puts the person at risk for not being taken seriously.> The only part I'm not sure I agree with Jena about is> wearing long hair loose at the office-I think it> depends.Oh, I do, too. Imagine Lady Godiva with her knee-length hair -- it seriously could be a health hazard at work. And, to be honest, since there's *so* much hair, it becomes the entire focus of her person (which is great in some situations!) thus threatening her credibility. However, "shorter" long hair, if it's styled well and not overwhelming can also be professional.Actually, sometimes when African-American women have trouble advancing in the workplace, it's because of a non-professional look. There are some exquisite hairstyles they wear on top of their heads with little braids cascading down which are lovely, but the look is not professional. In a work environment, the focus should be on the business at hand, not a beauty contest. That doesn't mean we can't look attractive and feminine! But we should not dress or wear our hair in the same fashion that we would on a Friday or Saturday night with friends or on dates.Thank you, Holly. :-)Jena
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Holly View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Holly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2000 at 9:57pm
Hi Jena,> I wasn't going to respond because when some people get> a notion in their heads, it doesn't matter what onesays to refute it.Well, I'm just tired of seeing words twisted around all the time and people made to look like they're saying something that they're not. It happened to me before, and it's no fun.> Absolutely. People are free to wear their hair however> they wish. But it's also fact that how a person wears> his hair and clothes puts out an impression> appropriate.I totally agree with that.> Oh, I do, too. Imagine Lady Godiva with her> knee-length hair -- it seriously could be a health> hazard at work. And, to be honest, since there's *so*> much hair, it becomes the entire focus of her person> (which is great in some situations!) thus threatening> her credibility. However, "shorter" long> hair, if it's styled well and not overwhelming can> also be professional.Yes, and you even said in another post that long hair is great for all types of styles-so how can you be a "short hair loving person"-or words to that effect-as Diane said in a post to you? I have long hair but like short hair, too. It IS possible to like both. We're not all militant about it.> Thank you, Holly. :-)YOU ARE SO WELCOME!Holly
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Dave View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2000 at 9:57pm
> Oh, I do, too. Imagine Lady Godiva with her> knee-length hair -- it seriously could be a health> hazard at work. And, to be honest, since there's *so*> much hair, it becomes the entire focus of her person> (which is great in some situations!) thus threatening> her credibility. However, "shorter" long> hair, if it's styled well and not overwhelming can> also be professional.Hi Jena,Re: your comment about long loose hair being unprofessional, I respectfully disagree. Through my career, I have known quite a few women who had hair that was from waist-length to as long as thigh-length, all (with one exception, for reasons other than her hair) of whom were considered by their peers to be thoroughly professional. Their hair is/was always very well-cared for, and the same degree of care and attention that they paid to their hair was also given to the rest of their polished and sophisticated appearances. The one factor which most affected their perceived professionalism (not just by me, but by everybody else) was their attitude! The one exception I mentioned before was seen as being somewhat unprofessional because of her sometimes unprofessional attitude.> Actually, sometimes when African-American women have> trouble advancing in the workplace, it's because of a> non-professional look. There are some exquisite> hairstyles they wear on top of their heads with little> braids cascading down which are lovely, but the look> is not professional. In a work environment, the focus> should be on the business at hand, not a beauty> contest. That doesn't mean we can't look attractive> and feminine! But we should not dress or wear our hair> in the same fashion that we would on a Friday or> Saturday night with friends or on dates.This fine line between being appropriately vs. inappropriately attractive seems a bit like walking a tightrope. Seems very confining and restrictive.Dave
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Lisa View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lisa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2000 at 9:57pm
> Jena,does not speak for all ladies,but expresses> negative> thoughts,to other women,who have ideas different than> hers.>. I disagree! I think Jena just states her opinion. I dont think she is disagreeing with others, she just says what her thoughts are. Personally, I wish I were more like Jena. I read some stuff here that I disagree with but I dont speak up because I am afraid of rocking the boat. Oh and by the way Jena, I completely agree with what you said in your post about Mark! His stories are just TOO strange. I always feel like I am reading about a town in a Stephen King novel when he talks about his town! Creepy! Well anyway Jena,I admire you for speaking your mind and I will continue to live vicariously through you. LOL. =) Lisa
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lady Godiva Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2000 at 9:57pm
You ought to ask my boss -- maybe even me -- about this before speculating on my professionalism or lack thereof.Perhaps my "shredder" and "photocopier," etc. images struck you strongly, but please don't go overboard with them. My point there was that *I* am aware of those hazards, so I take them into consideration when at work, if my hair is down, just as I do the dishwasher or oscillating fans at home. In reality, my long hair is no more of an occupational hazard than that ridiculous, but decorative, item that men wear around their necks, you know, their bibs (no, uh, the tie, yeah... that's it). My boss runs far more prints than I do and has to factor that thing in every single last time he makes a print. Talk about a nuisance, yet we consider ties to be a hallmark of businesslike apparrel.Another issue to consider is that we who meander around the hair sites on the internet don't represent all of the business world. When I tell people there are hair sites, they are surprised, if not shocked, to learn there is even such an animal on the internet. My point is that the people at work, as well as those we do business with, the developers, clients, tenants, contractors and government officials, don't generally concern themselves with hair as much as we do. They don't look at only my hair, and certainly see more of me than just hair.For the record, I have brought a higher level of professionalism to the firm, something that blows away my boss, given I'm not even a "trained" secretary. However, my interpersonal skills and writing talents do the trick. My credibility in my position lies with how many times I've saved my boss' arse in varying small situations and my ability to make even the most hardened developer laugh (and they're tough cookies, too!). That is good for business. My hair? Most don't notice it, as most of the time it's up. When it happens to be down, they sometimes stop to look, and then my hair adds to their already favorable impression of me.Jennifer Eve> Oh, I do, too. Imagine Lady Godiva with her> knee-length hair -- it seriously could be a health> hazard at work. And, to be honest, since there's *so*> much hair, it becomes the entire focus of her person> (which is great in some situations!) thus threatening> her credibility. However, "shorter" long> hair, if it's styled well and not overwhelming can> also be professional.
Avatar: Lady Godiva by John Collier, 1898

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Jena View Drop Down
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Hi Lisa!Thank you for the kind words. I really do appreciate them! This is obviously a "politics" board, and if everyone agreed on everything, it would get awfully boring. I think it really is helpful to learn others' points-of-view, even when they are vehemently different from ours. It's how we grow. However, militant views such as "all women look better with long hair," and "women with short hair are ugly," are not only presenting opinion as fact and are hurtful and mean, but they're probably going to win more "converts," so to speak, to the other side.Lisa, don't be afraid to rock the boat! I think we've all found out that we're pretty darned good swimmers when that boat starts rocking around in the water. {grin} *How* we present our opinions is almost more important than the opinions themselves. I do realize that sometimes my presentation needs a bit of polishing (I love David Lynch --he makes me look soooo good!), so I'm always striving to present my opinion in a way that doesn't offend others, yet never lose the thrust of the core.And, btw, Holly has an extremely keen eye. Apparently "Roxanne" and "Mark" attended the same grammar school......... ;-)Jena
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Hi Dave,> Re: your comment about long loose hair being> unprofessional, I respectfully disagree.No, no, no Dave...you're doing this all wrong. You're supposed to either 1) Jump up and down, screaming, "You stupid IDIOT! You don't know what you're talking about!!" or 2) Start crying about my complete insensitivity to your needs and how my opinions are hurting you psychologically. ;-)I'm just teasing you, of course!I do very much agree that attitude is probably utmost important. And also that there are some women who buck the trend and are perceived as being utmost professional, despite our "general" views of professionalism -- ie, ultra-conservative clothing and short, nondescript, generic hair.> This fine line between being appropriately vs.> inappropriately attractive seems a bit like walking a> tightrope. Seems very confining and restrictive.Believe it or not, our views aren't terribly dissimilar. The problem can be when our views of "professionalism" do not mesh with prospective employers or prospective clients.A person may have to make a choice between personal style and his career.I do hope you agree, though, that an elegant updo, with heavy make-up, long dangly diamond earrings, long black gown, and stilettos is not an appropriate look for the typical office!If a woman is dressed too "formally" or too "sexy," for the office, it may give the impression she's more interested in her appearance than her work. And in all honesty, a woman who is overdressed for an occasion can also look silly. I would hope a woman would like the focus to be on her work, not her appearance. That doesn't mean we can't look good! But if the hair looks like it's more appropriate for a party than an office, there is great potential that she simply won't be taken seriously.Oh, that reminds me. In the Spiegel catalog, I saw an outfit that *really* grabbed my attention because not only was it very "professional-looking" but also very, very chic and sexy. I was just so impressed that the different elements were all met at the same time!Jena
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Dear Jennifer,I honestly did not mean to step on toes when I mentioned your name. And in fact, I do not know you personally or your work situation and commented inappropriately.I am sorry, and I truly meant no offense. :-)Jena
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Dave View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2000 at 9:58pm
> Hi Dave,> No, no, no Dave...you're doing this all wrong. You're> supposed to either 1) Jump up and down, screaming,> "You stupid IDIOT! You don't know what you're> talking about!!" or 2) Start crying about my> complete insensitivity to your needs and how my> opinions are hurting you psychologically. ;-)> I'm just teasing you, of course!LOL! Surely you know ME by now, don't you Jena? :-)> I do very much agree that attitude is probably utmost> important. And also that there are some women who buck> the trend and are perceived as being utmost> professional, despite our "general" views of> professionalism -- ie, ultra-conservative clothing and> short, nondescript, generic hair.And I have known women with short hair who behaved in an unprofessional manner at the office. My experience has been that professionalism, or lack thereof, cannot be predicted or determined by hair length.> Believe it or not, our views aren't terribly> dissimilar. The problem can be when our views of> "professionalism" do not mesh with> prospective employers or prospective clients.> A person may have to make a choice between personal> style and his career.During the interview process especially, the attitude and professionalism one expresses are crucial. For those who are already gainfully employed and not seeking a new job, a certain amount of "leeway" may be felt, but I don't believe that having long hair hinders a job applicant. If it does, then perhaps the one who has a "problem" with hair is the interviewer, not the job applicant!> I do hope you agree, though, that an elegant updo,> with heavy make-up, long dangly diamond earrings, long> black gown, and stilettos is not an appropriate look> for the typical office!Maybe it would be on December 31, 1999, for those unlucky enough to have to be at the office for "Y2K coverage." Ugh.LOL> If a woman is dressed too "formally" or too> "sexy," for the office, it may give the> impression she's more interested in her appearance> than her work. And in all honesty, a woman who is> overdressed for an occasion can also look silly. I> would hope a woman would like the focus to be on her> work, not her appearance. That doesn't mean we can't> look good! But if the hair looks like it's more> appropriate for a party than an office, there is great> potential that she simply won't be taken seriously.It's a fine line, yes, but again, it's up to the other participant to acknowledge the fact that it is a business situation. It is our work efforts which help the business entity meet its objectives, not our sartorial efforts.> Oh, that reminds me. In the Spiegel catalog, I saw an> outfit that *really* grabbed my attention because not> only was it very "professional-looking" but> also very, very chic and sexy. I was just so impressed> that the different elements were all met at the same> time!Just as long hair *can* be worn loosely, being both chic and sexy, and "professional-looking," at the same time. :-)Dave
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jeffrey Hines Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2000 at 9:58pm
And not suprisingly they share the same isp and live in the same town.Jeff.
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You know coincidences are funny things. I ran a 5K this morning, and I'll be darned if they didn't set up a haircutting station at the starting line and all women under age 50 had to get buzzcuts! It's true, oh yes! But then, they'd only let women over 50 run if they had waist-length hair. The ones who didn't got stuck handing out water. Then, on the way home, I stopped to fill up the car with gas and when I walked into the convenience store to pay for the gas, it was all filled with long-haired wigs! I had to peek inside one of them and it said, "mad [sic] with love by mark." What a *coincidence*! And then I got home, and my two best friends from college called to ask if I would run in a race to benefit their "disease" -- they have that very same haircutting disease that six of the women in Mark's apartment building have! And speaking of hair, another friend of mine was in tears because she went to the salon for a trim for her derriere-length hair and ended up with a buzzcut -- imagine that! And my husband just showed me a memo from work that said all women where he works must get buzzcuts by next Wednesday or be fired.What a coincidence, really! Oh, I absolutely swear this all happened! Yes, yes, it's all true! Really! I kid you not!;-)Jena
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lisa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2000 at 9:58pm
> You know coincidences are funny things. I ran a 5K> this morning, and I'll be darned if they didn't set up> a haircutting station at the starting line and all> women under age 50 had to get buzzcuts! It's true, oh> yes! But then, they'd only let women over 50 run if> they had waist-length hair. The ones who didn't got> stuck handing out water. Then, on the way home, I> stopped to fill up the car with gas and when I walked> into the convenience store to pay for the gas, it was> all filled with long-haired wigs! I had to peek inside> one of them and it said, "mad [sic] with love by> mark." What a *coincidence*! And then I got home,> and my two best friends from college called to ask if> I would run in a race to benefit their> "disease" -- they have that very same> haircutting disease that six of the women in Mark's> apartment building have! And speaking of hair, another> friend of mine was in tears because she went to the> salon for a trim for her derriere-length hair and> ended up with a buzzcut -- imagine that! And my> husband just showed me a memo from work that said all> women where he works must get buzzcuts by next> Wednesday or be fired.> What a coincidence, really! Oh, I absolutely swear> this all happened! Yes, yes, it's all true! Really! I> kid you not!> ;-)> JenaLOL!!! I was having a really crappy day till I read this! I am still smiling! Thanks for the laugh Jena. =) Lisa
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> You know coincidences are funny things. I ran a 5K> this morning, and I'll be darned if they didn't set up> a haircutting station at the starting line and all> women under age 50 had to get buzzcuts! It's true, oh> yes! But then, they'd only let women over 50 run if> they had waist-length hair. The ones who didn't got> stuck handing out water. Then, on the way home, I> stopped to fill up the car with gas and when I walked> into the convenience store to pay for the gas, it was> all filled with long-haired wigs! I had to peek inside> one of them and it said, "mad [sic] with love by> mark." What a *coincidence*! And then I got home,> and my two best friends from college called to ask if> I would run in a race to benefit their> "disease" -- they have that very same> haircutting disease that six of the women in Mark's> apartment building have! And speaking of hair, another> friend of mine was in tears because she went to the> salon for a trim for her derriere-length hair and> ended up with a buzzcut -- imagine that! And my> husband just showed me a memo from work that said all> women where he works must get buzzcuts by next> Wednesday or be fired.> What a coincidence, really! Oh, I absolutely swear> this all happened! Yes, yes, it's all true! Really! I> kid you not!> ;-)> Jenayou're a clever girl, jena...have you thought about writing fiction? :c)
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I would just like to point out that different professions have different requirements. A woman working in a very conservative profession like banking would have to take more care not to appear too casual, but a woman in a less restrictive profession might be able to get away with it. Each person, in the end, must make her own judgment as to appropriate hairstyle for the workplace.
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> I would just like to point out that different> professions have different requirements. A woman> working in a very conservative profession like banking> would have to take more care not to appear too casual,> but a woman in a less restrictive profession might be> able to get away with it. Each person, in the end,> must make her own judgment as to appropriate hairstyle> for the workplace.Carolyn,I agree with you.
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>> Sounds like she hit a nerve-do you wear these> ornaments?No Jena didn't hit a nerve. The only point I am trying to make it that there isn't any set of rules. IN fact Holly if you really look around what bothers me is that the professional world isn't so professional it is now more casual . So ponytails and other items are professional in today's standard to the way people now dress up.My bank people wear jeans, at work I hardly see any suits or anything of the sort. The whole industry is steeering away from this so call professional look.> Please see my post to you and "Roxanne"> together on the thread I started about Nicky Clarke> called "Some of you aren't going to like> this".> Holly
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> Where do you see women that are dress so so professional that a ponytail or anything else wouldn't look professional because in my area we are more casual so that would qualified in being professional.I have talked to many reps that use to sell men suits etc and they said that the industry is dying. It is an industry of casual wear so women today don't spend tons of money the way they used to . MOre professional people are casual.That is where I am coming from.
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