my parents hate my long hair
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Category: Long Hair Happenings
Forum Name: Long Hair Support
Forum Description: Growing it long takes commitment and support.
URL: https://talk.hairboutique.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=528
Printed Date: April 08 2025 at 1:42pm
Topic: my parents hate my long hair
Posted By: Unregistered Guest
Subject: my parents hate my long hair
Date Posted: April 14 2003 at 5:16pm
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Hey everyone, I am a 15-year old male and I need some serious help with keeping long hair, but it's not about the speed of growth or what people think of it; I'm not really worried about it at all... Well here's the story I've had long hair almost down to my shoulders since 7th grade, but I cut it WAY shorter a few months ago (although it is almost eye-length now) and my parents don't want me to have long hair, EVER again. Me and my dad have been arguing about it for a long time. He wants it short, clean, and nothing below my eyebrows, which I can't agree on. I tried all sorts of deals, like I promised to keep my grades up, or never to get into trouble. I even threatend to intentionally fail school if he didn't let me grow it long, but he said he would make me shave it all off, and I would probably just cold feet before even doing it. His reasons for not letting me have long hair is because he says it is feminine (I strongly disagree), non - hygenic (although I wash my hair everyday and I am clean 99% of the time) and he says I would look like a gay person, which I think is totally ridiculous. He says only gay men have long hair but he knows it isn't true. = / My parents are usually understanding of me but they cant agree with me on long hair. Not a single day passes without my mom or dad saying, "You need a haircut". Its driving me crazy. It is making me become more distant from my parents, and I hate having short hair. How can I convince them??? Please help me, this is urgent. Thanx, prettyboi (im not gay lol  )PS sorry the post so long! =D |
Replies:
Posted By: Karen Shelton
Date Posted: April 14 2003 at 5:55pm
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Hi, Oh what a dilemna. I totally relate since I have endured parents, lovers, friends & bosses lean on me at various times in my life about my hair being too long or too blonde or too whatever. This is a very hard one to resolve because of your age and the fact that you live with your parents in their home. One thing I would suggest is to get an adult that your parents respect and listen to as a mediator. Are you close to any of your teachers or a school guidance counselor? What about a priest or preacher or someone from your church? Or someone from a youth group. I think if you can talk to another adult and let them know the problem and ask them to help you negotiate with your parents you might be able to find a win/win solution for everyone. It really sounds like you have hit a roadblock where your parents believe one thing and you another. So if you can break the block w/ an advocate that can show your parents that letting you compromise and have your hair a way that you can both live with, you will all be happier. I know that when I get stuck like this I always look for a third person that is objective to both sides that can help me negoiate the situation. Is this a possibility for you? Hang in there. I am sure you will find a way to work this out. Best wishes, Karen ------------- That which doesn't kill you makes you stronger or drives you totally insane. :-) |
Posted By: hairalways
Date Posted: April 15 2003 at 1:14pm
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Hey PB - As a mom of 3 boys who I will NEVER tell them how to wear their hair I have to tell you that your parents are doing this becasue they are trying to protect you. They don't know how not to be this way and will not stop because they feel like if they do, then they are failing as parents. I can tell you this becasue I have felt this way about other things before with my sons and have had to stop myself. Your parents can't let go of the stigma of long hair and they feel that you, their son will be judged badly by other people who have their same stigma. You feel me? So Anyway, my 2. You need to tell them what you told us...with another person in the room as Karen suggested, would be great becasue they would be forced to see the other person'r side. Good luck. jacqui ------------- |
Posted By: uzma
Date Posted: April 15 2003 at 1:37pm
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You are at a cross-road. Parents are there to nurture their children into healthy adults, to guide them and above all to love them. Your having long hair is not going to compromise your health, moral values or anything else critical to your proper development. It is, therefore, not their business. Whatever their personal prejudice about this matter, I would advise you to do one thing - and it will take every fibre of patience you have: IGNORE THEM AND DO NOT RESPOND TO THEIR COMMENTS OR THREATS. You hair is part of your body and it is totally your choice what you do with it. If they persist and you really cannot bear it, do not give in to their demands to cut it off. Tell them to post their point of views on this board and see the responses they get. If that's no-go, and things get really serious, go see your high-school counciller, doctor, priest (sorry, I don't know your lifestyle, but basically I mean anyone who is an adult in a position of authority) - see them all and explain how this is affecting you. Ask those who are sympathetic and approving of your choice if they could speak to your parents and tell them to cool it. Hell, if you were local to me, I'd do it myself. This really makes my blood boil because it is an infringement of your basic, God-given right to be yourself in your physical person. Of course, this is also spilling over into your psychological and emotion relationships with your family, but remember to remind them that it is THEY who choose to cause the distancing you spoke off. Be careful, be brave, be determined and maintain your dignity. You will soon be an independent adult and can walk away. And please, let it be just their words and control you walk away from - not their love. For what it's worth, you have the support of myself and the other posters to your message. Best wishes Uzma ------------- Uzi |
Posted By: Unregistered Guest
Date Posted: April 15 2003 at 11:31pm
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I say, cut it. First, it will probably look cute. Second, get a cute girl at school to go wioth you. Tell her your story, and ask her to go with you, or cut some of it. Girls like that stuff. Also, if you tell your parents you don''t think long hair is gay, or dirty, but if this make them happy, fine. Now you have all the power. And like I said, it will probabaly be really cute. |
Posted By: Unregistered Guest
Date Posted: April 16 2003 at 12:43am
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I say follow your heart and talk to your parents. Don't cut your hair because it will make you unhappy and if you work at this thing you can find a win/win. I think asking another person to help mediate is very wise. C |
Posted By: DaveDecker
Date Posted: April 16 2003 at 6:37pm
Your opinion, fair enough.
How do you know he doesn't already have a cute girlfriend? How do you know the girls he has his eye on don't already have their eyes on him and his long hair? Girls like what kind of stuff? That guys cut their hair? Or that they are communicative and expressive? I'm not sure what you're saying.
Now you've got me really confused. That makes no sense. Care to elaborate how he gains all the power just because he expressed his opinion?
Yes, you like short hair on guys. We hear you.  ------------- |
Lorilee wrote:Posted By: Karen Shelton
Date Posted: April 16 2003 at 7:53pm
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Hi Dave, I have to agree with you that cutting the hair will only make PrettyBoi feel bad since he has been very clear with all of us that he doesn't want to cut his hair. I still vote for keeping his hair and getting a mediator. Just my 2 cents worth. Karen ------------- That which doesn't kill you makes you stronger or drives you totally insane. :-) |
Posted By: Unregistered Guest
Date Posted: April 16 2003 at 7:59pm
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Yikes! Under attack! This guy has had long hair for a long time. His parents are using it as leverage. I say take away the leverage. I cut my mid-back hair to my shoulders to get the flip thing going, and I didn't like it, but everyone else did. Its become my style. I asked a guy at school if I should cut it, I asked a bunch of girls... it made it fun, kind of an event. I meant for him to enjoy the moment. And, yeah, I like short hair on guys, but not every guy. I don't like the " its just long enough to comb so I slick it down with gel " look at all. Better longer and dry, or buzzed. |
Posted By: uzma
Date Posted: April 17 2003 at 1:21am
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It really doesn't matter what anybody likes or wants, other than the young man in question. Personally, every time my hair was forcibly cut I felt an intense sense of loss that was disproportional to the actual act of cutting hair. That's because hair had become a battleground. Because it represented the possession and control of my identity by others and the act of hacking it off was their asserting control of it. Prettyboi's hair is as much part of him as his arms and legs. Just because it grows if cut does not make it less so. Other people owning and modifying one's body parts carries strong hints of slavery. These "parents" need to engage brain and see that their behaviour and attitude - not their son's hair length - is the problem. Yeah, I know I'm getting really heavy on this one (sorry). Uzma ------------- Uzi |
Posted By: Lady Maria
Date Posted: April 17 2003 at 9:48am
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The problem is, his parents are paying his room and board, and he is still a minor. They do have some say in his life, whether anyone thinks that is good parenting or not. Not to worry. In 3 years he will be 18 and will either have to go to college, to the military or out into the workforce. Then he will have adult responsibilities AND will get to make his own decisions about hair and other things. ------------- Lady Maria |
Posted By: Isla Q.
Date Posted: April 17 2003 at 3:48pm
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Yes, so maybe his parent support him financially, but that doesn't mean they can make all of his decisions for him. I mean, that's part of growing up, right, you're starting to make your own decisions and learning from them? And hopefully your parents support you (and not just financially). And the fact that he's a minor shouldn't make any difference here, it's not like getting a tattoo! The way you look, and the way your hair looks, is such a personal thing, I don't think other people should make decisions for you in that area. Giving advice, or expressing concerns, that's fine, but that should be it. It doesn't really matter how old you are. I would have thought that the people who post on this board would all feel this way, considering we all have an above average interest in hair and therefore realize how important hair can be to people. And by this I don't mean important to other people, but how important your own hair can be to yourself. ------------- |
Posted By: Brent
Date Posted: April 17 2003 at 5:10pm
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Isla: If I understand Maria correctly she agreed with the 15 year old boy but simply pointed out that he isn't paying the bills, he is living off of others, and yes he still is a kid, 15 isn't an adult . I don't know if you got kids Isla, I've got 3 kids and I can tell you every responsible parent has rules the kids have to follow. One of the reasons we are creating such a disfunctional society today is that us adults have pandered too much to our children's every whim. Children, and this includes teenagers, have to learn they don't always get their way in life. That is part of being a grownup and they especially have to learn that they cannot wear any clothes they like or hairstyle they like until they are grown up enough to pay the bills. Honestly, my oldest son is 14, there are certain styles of clothing and hair I wouldn't allow him to wear. Kids have to hear NO once in a while,otherwise they will grow up to be spoiled,self- indulgent little brats, and they will learn the hard way, once they deal with real adults in real circumstances, that you sometimes need to compromise in real life and work with others, you don't allways get your way. Nothing worse than a spoiled prima donna(male or female) who feels they should allways get their way. How the real world works:- You get your way when you are grown up enough to pay your way. Even then you don't always get your own way. That's life. That's reality. Sorry. |
Posted By: Unregistered Guest
Date Posted: April 17 2003 at 6:01pm
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I think if you don’t want to cut it, don’t your 15 your parents can’t throw you out they WILL deal with it. When I got purple streaks in my hair, my parents were mad and demanded I get my hair dyed to its original color, my parents said I was going to be mistaken for a lesbian because only lesbians dyed their hair purple. I was 14 so they could not force me to do anything. They told me I was punished till I dyed it back to its original color I told them I would purposely fail my classes if they punished me. I was punished and after a week I go tone of my teachers that understood my situation to call my parents and say I wasn’t doing my work, if I continued not doing my work I was going to be taken out of honors classes and I would start high school in regular instead of honors (she lied). After that phone call I was unpunished and was allowed to dye my hair whichever color I chose. Seeing that they were okay with it I eventually decided to give my original hair color another try and currently I am a happy with my hair being a golden dark-brown *Princessa* |
Posted By: DaveDecker
Date Posted: April 17 2003 at 6:44pm
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Decisions that 15-year olds can make which should be judged by their parents (no particular order): * School grades & effort * Being helpful around the home, keeping bedroom clean * And in general, being respectful and thoughtful for themselves and others, in word and deed Decisions that 15-year olds can make which should not be judged by their parents (no particular order): * hairstyle * clothing style * musical & other artistic tastes It is not wise for parents to quash children's harmless wishes and dreams. Period. |
Posted By: Lady Maria
Date Posted: April 17 2003 at 7:45pm
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I agree with you Dave to a point. It depends how outlandish the hair style is. Also as far as clothes go, would you let your daughter wear something so skimpy that she looked like a stripper or a streetwalker? And if you would let her wear something like that, in a way you are telling her that you don't care much about her, that maybe she isn't really worth much. I believe that some children act out and wear outrageous clothes or dress like a tramp because they are looking for some discipline. They are hoping their parents will care enough about them to give them some rules. As much as I hated being told what to do when I was a teenager, I knew my parents loved me and wanted the best for me. That meant much more to me than being able to do, or wear, anything I wanted whenever I wanted. My parents were fair with me but they did have some rules, including not looking like a punk girl or a tramp, and I'm glad they did. I still to this day allways try to look neat, clean and presentable. I learned that from them. And it has helped me with my self respect and my ability to get along with others. I have to go with Brent on this one. Also Princessa, I think when Brent was refering to self indulgent and bratty children he may have had someone like you in mind. I was hardly a perfect kid but you sound not only stubborn but a little spoiled, manipulative, and bratty. Some parents would have thrown you out on the street. Your lucky your parents indulged you, although that may not be good in the long run being that manipulative. You pull a stunt like that in the workplace and try to manipulate your boss like you did your parents you may find yourself out of work and into the poorhouse. Many people don't go for that sort of manipulation. Sincerely, Maria ------------- Lady Maria |
Posted By: Josie
Date Posted: April 18 2003 at 12:42am
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I think long hair on men can be really sexy...just as long as when you get older and (possibly) start going bald, DO NOT try to comb the remaining 20 strands into a pony tail. It just looks bad. I support you wanting your hair long, your parents should understand that they are being prejudice against people by saying men with long hair is only for the gay. I know plenty of gay guys I go to college with, and let me tell you something...not all of them have long hair, some have really short hair, and some none at all. High school is hard enought, your parents shouldn't make it harder on you by fussing about your hair. I agree with the other postings, that suggest a mediator. Life is not about worrying what other people think of you because of your looks. Life IS what you make of it, and what makes YOU happy.
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Posted By: Lady Maria
Date Posted: April 18 2003 at 1:01am
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I agree Josie that people who believe long haired men are gay are living in the stone age. Where have they been the past 30 years? The point that myself and others were making though is that parents do have some control over their children until they are eighteen and earning a living. If I had a teenage son I would let him have long hair,(my fiancee has long hair and I assure you he isn't gay!). But there are some forms of clothing or hair I might not allow for my son or daughter. A meditator isn't a bad idea, that could work for everyone involved. . But I still content that teenagers have to learn they can't allways get their way. I had to learn it.(Example- My parents let me pierce my ears but wouldn't allow me to have a pierced nostril. I didn't get my nostril pierced until I was an adult). ------------- Lady Maria |
Posted By: Isla Q.
Date Posted: April 18 2003 at 2:33am
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I agree with you here, Maria. When your daughter's walking around wearing next to nothing, a parent should speak up, absolutely. But -and from your posts I understand you feel that way too - a fifteen-year-old boy growing his hair long does not fall into that same category. He's not hurting anyone by doing this. I don't think it's right to call Princessa bratty and spoiled, though. She shared her own story with us, and gave a view from a teenage perspective, which I personally appreciate. You can't have a discussion without all sides taking part. Brent: I think you misunderstood my post. Indeed, a 15-year-old is not an adult, but he should be able to make *some* decisions for himself and learn from them. Like Dave said, when it comes to education, housework and being kind and respectful to others the parents should be scricter. And no, kids shouldn't always get their way. But when it comes to one's appearance they should try to hold back (except when their looks can put them in danger - like a Christina Aguilera outfit -, or if they can be offending to other people - like growing a Hitler-like moustache for example). Your looks are such a definition of your individuality, maybe especially at that age. And, like I said before, who's is someone hurting when he grows his hair long? ------------- |
Posted By: Unregistered Guest
Date Posted: April 18 2003 at 4:34pm
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(This is really long) Lady Maria, I have a couple of things to address to you: 1) learn to spell “Brent was refering to self indulgent”. REFERRING is not spelled correctly the way you wrote it. 2)You refereed to yourself as “I WAS hardly perfect”, obviously you still are not perfect since you can’t spell. 3) I am not bratty, a little spoiled and stubborn maybe but what you considered bratty and manipulative was just a form of trying to get some freedom, you are not me and unless you were you wouldn’t understand what my life is like. If you knew what my life was like you would see that what I did was not bratty and what my parents gave me was a form of psychology. Indeed my aunt is a psychologist and told my parents that what I did was forming my individual identity. 4) If I am manipulative and I do that in the work place I might be out of work but not in the poorhouse. I think the only reason parents would want to throw someone out would be if they were thought they knew everything, like YOU. 5)Although “people don't go for that sort of manipulation” I found it to work when parents don’t understand. My story is my parents are way too strict and don’t give me much freedom I finally got some freedom through “that sort of manipulation.” I just thought that Prettyboi is in the same type of situation. Just because you don’t agree with my ways, doesn’t mean I will change (<- my stubbornness) for you. Or anyone. Last but not least, the message I wrote was not for you, it was for Prettyboi. THIS MESSAGE REFLECTS MY PERSONAL VIEW, I HOPE NONE OF THIS OFFENDS YOU and THANK YOU! I was really refreshed and challenged by your unique point of view. I can see your point but I still think your full of it. Thank you Isla Q. for seeing my point. *Princessa* |
Posted By: DaveDecker
Date Posted: April 18 2003 at 4:46pm
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"People who live in glass houses should not throw stones." -- Benjamin Franklin Princessa, just as you pointed out a spelling error by Lady Maria, so too did you err; "you're" is what you intended in your closing. That said, this isn't the English grammar or spelling board. There are people who visit here for whom English is not their first language. Even people for whom English is their first and perhaps only language will misspell words occasionally. Let's not take each other to task over minor errors in the use of English. And another thing... while we may have differences of opinion here -- and that is perfectly acceptable -- let's try to avoid issuing personal insults. I realize it isn't always easy to avoid such thoughts, but when you're feeling that way, please think twice before hitting the "Post Reply" button. Thank you all. ------------- |
Posted By: uzma
Date Posted: April 18 2003 at 5:02pm
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Princessa - I totally agree with and support your view-point, as I support Prettyboi in his right to determine his own appearance. We are all dependent (except the very rich) - initially on family and subsequently on employers, partners, etc. I cannot understand why people think that financial dependence means giving up your personal self-determinism. I have seen long-haired men (and women) experience discrimination, insults and abuse in the work-place purely because their appearance did not conform to the corporations idea of acceptability. This is hurtful and disrespectful. The act of cultivating long hair, as a previous poster said, does not hurt anyone. I also think that there are too many of us who have been subject to the irrational and prejudical biases of those who hold financial/emotional power over us - the scars are real and deep. For people to suggest that imposing restrictions on the development of identity (and let's be serious - this is what is going on here) is a healthy way to nurture children, is pure bull. Prettyboi is not asking permission to do drugs or carry a gun. It is not brattish or manipulative for a teenager to experiment and make choices through trial and error. Parents should respect this process, if their kids are to enter adulthood as confident individuals with a strong understanding of who they are. Also, as Dave said, please let's not resort to insults. Offending and judging others is destructive and there is too much of that in the real world without having to deal with it on these boards - they are for "support" after all..... Take care Uzma ------------- Uzi |
Posted By: Unregistered Guest
Date Posted: April 18 2003 at 8:01pm
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Davedecker, Thank you for pointing out my error and as you pointed out I am one of those “people who visit here for whom English is not their first language.” In fact English is my third language after Portuguese, and Spanish. After being in this country for 2 years I do pretty good in English considering the amount of time I have been learning it and the reason I noticed that spelling error was because I get confused when reading things in different languages when they are spelled wrong. My native language is Spanish and Portuguese is pretty close but English is really different from those two languages especially “your and you’re” words. Thank you again and like Lady Maria I am also Mexican- American I make mistakes but she says she has been here for so much longer than I. I am not trying to put maria down in fact I support her as a fellow Mexican and if I make a mistake I would really appreciate if I was told about the mistakes I make. I really didn’t like the way I was stereotyped by an action I took that was essential for me to get freedom. We might be in the land of liberty but parents sometimes don’t let us have any type of freedom. I think what I did was right and I also wrote “THIS MESSAGE REFLECTS MY PERSONAL VIEW, I HOPE NONE OF THIS OFFENDS YOU and THANK YOU! I was really refreshed and challenged by your unique point of view.” I thanked her for her message and I apologize if I offend anyone but then again the message I wrote was not for you, it was for Lady Maria. The message “I can see your point but I still think your full of it” was a quote that I forgot to put in quotation marks I got it from a movie with the English subtitles so I thought it would have been correct. Sorry again Davedecker if you thought anything I said was insulting but I don’t think it was correct for her to call me bratty, manipulative, spoiled, and stubborn based on one story that was intended for Prettyboi not her. *Princessa* |
Posted By: Brent
Date Posted: April 18 2003 at 10:11pm
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People: I would like to ask all of you people who have written on this thread a question--- How many of you have kids? ---I don't know any of you other than what I can glean from your writings, but my guess is that none of you have kids; certainly not teenage kids. I get a kick out of people that talk about "freedom" for kids and how us parents have to be "sensitive" to kids and let our 14 year olds dye their hair purple, get tattoos, get eyebrow and lip piercings, and so forth. Ask any school principal or social worker or cop that works with teenagers, they will tell you that the kids that are allowed to look or dress however they like are usually, with some exceptions, also the kids who take drugs, hang out with the wrong crowd, end up getting pregnant at 15, or going to jail, or heaven forbid, die of a drug overdose or get involved with guns. The type of kids at Columbine who shot up their school were spoiled kids allowed to dress how they liked by their "liberal" parents, they were so typical of that type of liberal mindset. The kids who join street gangs, and I don't just mean poor inner city kids, sure they dress and wear their hair however they like. These are the "Dead End Kids", social misfits, the kids who end up in psych wards, chemical dependency treatment centers, sometimes in prison or the morque. Uzma, you of all people should know this. Why do you think traditional societies like the Arabs or the Chinese are so suspicious of too much Western "freedom" for children and teenagers. Children are supposed to be disciplined and denied some freedom to some degree. Yes we allow them to make their own decisions unless they are making the wrong decisions or decisions that will have them catergorized as misfits. If they develop an image as a loser, a misfit, an indulged spoiled little brat, they gravitate into that sort of bad behaviour. Don't take my word for it, ask any responsible,(and I don't mean liberal elitist) social worker, shrink, or cop. The worse thing you can ever do with a kid is be too "sensitive" to the kid. Much too much of that in modern Western society in recent decades. It doesn't serve us well. Somewhere between the extreme of Western liberalism and religious, conservative, Fundamentalism in some social circles and countries, is a balanced, rational way to raise children. With adults it is different, we are living in a free society, adults in free countries have a bit more leeway, but children need a balance and you don't get it with the Western "liberals", that's for sure. You people have a few kids then tell me about it. You will find out your liberal idealism and indulging your kids isn't in their, or society's, best interest. Maria:- Don't offer any apology to this "Princessa" or whatever this teenaged overindulged girl calls herself. Kids who are fourteen don't need purple or pink hair, and I doubt she is an honor student but even if she is I would have grounded her without television, computer use(other than for school) or other privledges for a month for lying and as you say manipulating. And if she wants to purposely fail at school, let her fail for a while and let her learn the hard way where it gets her.She is a blatant case of a kid playing on "liberal, sensitive" parents. A fourteen year old doesn't know much, neither do these "liberal" adults. --- Ask the counselors at the treatment centers or the social workers and the cops at juvey hall. Liberalism doesn't work. Extreme conservatism doesn't work either but that's the problem of traditional countries , not so much the Western nations. Our biggest problem are the so called "liberals". |
Posted By: uzma
Date Posted: April 19 2003 at 5:17am
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Brent You are making gross generalisations, in assuming that parents allowing teenagers free expression with their personal appearance correlates to self-destructive and anti-social behaviours. I have not found this to be the case in my 37 years of life experience. I met loads of kids from strict backgrounds at University and mostly, they, like myself, were repressed and “half-cooked”, incapable of making their own decisions and having low self-esteem by having personal volition knocked out of them. Our parents just wanted their kids to be clones of themselves. Any other lifestyle choice was out of the question. There were other kids at Uni who were involved in the punk movement and had very striking appearances – some of these were also from very strict backgrounds and had suffered for their appearance and ideas – others were from more liberal backgrounds and were well-adjusted young adults who were able to express their ideas and ideals with clarity and logic beyond most of us. The traditional society to which I belong does not value the “freedom” of western societies with regard to what is considered immoral behaviour, i.e gratuitous violence, promiscuity, self-harm, disrespect of others. We have no street gangs and haven’t had popular cultural movements (punk, rock, heavy metal, etc) that carry a dress-code. We do have vast musical and artistic development but these are not associated with a particular look that has to be followed. Anyway, I digress. I agree that children have to be nurtured in a disciplined enviroment. We need to grow healthy societies with strong roots. I have a reputation for being strict with children when it comes to manners, morality and cleanliness. Where appearance is concerned, I have watched their experimentation with great interest, and, I hope, support. IMO, the kids who fall into error do so through parental neglect. Parental sensitivity and care is essential as is a firm hand and rational guidance. Surely it is the kids who are ignored, abused and un-parented that become anti-social. Liberalism is not synonymous with neglectful parenting – In my experience, it is the opposite. I guess I am one of those liberal idealists you deride – LOL!!! As such, I fight for human rights and the preservation of the ecological integrity of our planet – along with a bunch of long-haired, multi-coloured, multi-cultural, bike-riding, tree-climbing, free/deep speaking/thinking, pierced, painted, glorious, wonderful men and women :-) I don’t consider any of my peers or myself losers or misfits. Most of us work, pay taxes, etc. Kids grow into adults and if our idealism, transalates into their goals, the world may be a better place as a result. To conclude, I don’t agree that liberalism is the big problem in the western world. (Perhaps our respective interpretations of the word “liberal” is basically different…who knows…) IMO, it is a lack of good values, social conscience and morality that has led to our problems. To my mind those attributes have been compromised and diminished to almost nothing, hence our pathetic tolerance of crime, our highly-consumerist culture and the growing rise of extreme conservatism all over the world. Have a good week-end. Uzma ------------- Uzi |
Posted By: Lady Maria
Date Posted: April 19 2003 at 9:28am
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Brent and Uzma, I respect both of you. Both of you are two of the most intelligent people who write here. I don't think the liberals are as bad as you are making them out to be Brent,and I don't think the liberals are as good as you are making them out to be Uzma. Not all liberals are misfits or spoiled brats Brent ,some are just eccentric idealists who are bascially good and responsible people and you need some idealists and even some eccentrics in society, Brent. That isn't necessarily bad for society. Some of the liberal types really are airheads though Uzma. And while many liberals are responsible and grownup in their behavior and ideals, some are misfits or don't know how the "real" world",(business,economics, politics, the military,etc) works. And some are too leniant with children and spoil them. It's like the anti-war protestors or environmental protestors. Some are sincere, educated, rational people who respect others who disagree with them,and they know how politics and business work. But some are immature and spoiled and intolerant of conservatives and don't know how the world really works, they couldn't run a popscicle stand if their life depended on it. I have met both types of liberals, and the immature ones aren't always young, some are older. And if a liberal is truly grownup they have to do more then just say they are for "multi-cultures" or "believe in the environment". Anyone can say that, even some conservatives say that. You have to know how things really work, and that includes the economy, industry, and the military, that also is part of life, politics, and reality. The same is of course true with Conservatives. They have their good and bad. Some Conservatives are sincere, knowledgable, and moderate and tolerant of other viewpoints and people. Others are extremist and really are oppressive to people and too intolerant of other views and not good for society. It probably isn't good to generalize liberals or conservatives too much. They both have their good and bad points. But the nice thing is in a democracy that allows freedom, both liberals and conservatives are allowed their viewpoints and allowed to participate in our democracy. I wouldn't want to live in a country that just had liberals or just had conservatives, you need the better ideas from both. Having said all that though, getting back to our initial point, by law and by tradition in almost every society, a minor living with his/her parents, does not have the rights or the responsibilities of an adult. And I believe that while it is good to allow the child to experiment to a point, the final say is the parents. That is true not only in conservative countries, it is even true in our more liberal western countries. When a kid is 18 out working, or on their own in college, then they have the responsibilities AND freedoms of an adult. That IS how the real world works. That is obvious. ------------- Lady Maria |
Posted By: uzma
Date Posted: April 19 2003 at 9:56am
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Thanks Lady Maria. You're right, of course...***she says thinking of a few people she knows*** ...and this beautiful, mysterious world is a balance of all sort of mixtures of people and personalities. ...and there's room for all of us, all our ideals, tribes, cultures and children. ...including long-haired teenage boys and stroppy, bad-tempered 5 year olds girls who want to kill the kitten because it is getting more attention than they are (personal crisis in progress). Cheers Uzma ------------- Uzi |
Posted By: Brent
Date Posted: April 19 2003 at 11:12am
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Well good Maria and Uzma. we agree that there needs to be different kinds of people and both leftists and rightists have their flaws and good points: .....just a couple of little things I need to add Uzma. When I was talking about liberals, my real beef is with the liberal elites. You know the type; the ones who claim solidarity with the working class yet have never done a working class job and who put down the more conservative and religious values that the working class often has. The liberals who are ever- so - tolerant of radical feminists and gays and lesbians but are completely intolerant of conservatives or their beliefs. What infuriated me the most in college were the kids who were raised in wealthy liberal families who had a very condescending attitude towards those young people of their age who served in the military. I, on a number of occasions , heard these spoiled brats call people in the military "robots" or "murderers" or "fascists". That outraged me. These spoiled kids who never had to do anything difficult in their life had the audacity to put down our blue collar young people who served in the military putting their very life on the line to defend our freedom! As has been mentioned, without our armed forces, Nazis and Communist dictatorships would dominate the world. These liberal elitist brats would not have their freedoms and liberty, nor their parents money, if dictators controlled our nations. Many of these kids were also mindlessly anti-capitalist. So I strongly disagree that children raised in liberal families are more mature and thoughtful than children raised in more conservative environments. It has been my experience, and I'm early 40s a few years older than you Uzma, that the kids who wore the punk styles when I was a teenager usually did have more trouble in school and with the law. Some of these kids were rebelling against overly strict parents but others were simply allowed to do whatever they wanted by overly liberal parents. Looks do influence how a young person percieves themself, and ask the police or the social workers about this. The kids with the most problems and who are most likely to end up dead, in jail, in drug treatment or preganant at 15 are the ones who look awful, look like punks, and all too often they have been spoiled by leniant parents. This cuts across racial and class lines as well. The good news is most of the kids who looked terrible and ridiculous outgrew it. But some didn't and ended up dead or addicted to drugs or booze or had other problems that were serious with the law. Some also ended up being bums who spend their life complaining and protesting how terrible conservatives are or how terrible western nations are. That I don't need and it is juvenile behaviour. I must admit my hair was a little long and I was maybe a little too much into hard rock and heavy metal myself when I was a teenager and a young adult, and I did try pot and drank some beer, but I outgrew it and thankfully never took more dangerous drugs like heroin or cocaine. I was thankfully never overly left wing in my political beliefs either. I never put down people who served in the military and I knew that I wasn't better than people who were more conservative than I was. I don't like the far right wing either of course, the racists or religious extremists or bigots. I don't trust religious fundamentalists who are intolerant of other religions. I have no problem with conservative, tradional people however. In fact I appreciate them and try to learn from them and install values in my kids that are at least somewhat conservative without being too oppressive. I am a mixture of liberal and conservative in my social and political beliefs, but I must admit I am much more conservative now, with raising kids and with my politics than I was 20 years ago. That may be a natural progression as well. Good luck Maria and Uzma. Thank you for your writings, you gals are great!! |
Posted By: Isla Q.
Date Posted: April 19 2003 at 11:25am
Uzma: I was with you up until the 'killing kittens' bit.... Brent: I was going to disagree with you in full, but Uzma did it first (and more articulate than I could have). I would like to remind you of an old expression though: "Never jugde a book by it's cover". I know plenty of people with purple hair, or other exterior trademarks you wouldn't allow your kids to have, who are amazing, kind, intelligent people and lots of 'normal-looking' who are none of those things. Having said that, I think it's great you're posting your views here, as you reflect another side of the discussion. I can't help but think this whole discussion really boils down to one question: what will other people think of my child, and, what will those people then think of me? Prettyboi: are you still here? How's it going? ------------- |
Posted By: Lady Maria
Date Posted: April 19 2003 at 12:01pm
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Isla, You are obviously more liberal than Brent although I don't think Brent is ultra-conservative by any means. I also believe Brent is right, as people get older and have children of their own, they usually become more conservative than they were when they were 22 years old. That happens with most of us and parents want the best for their kids and don't want them to get into trouble. That is human nature. There has to be a balance in all of this. I'm in my late twenties and getting married soon and hopefully will have kids in the not too distant future and I am more conservative than I was five years ago, although I was never extremely liberal. I consider myself politically to be a moderate independent. I usually vote for the Democrats but I like some Republicans too(John McCain is one of them). I really have no problem with kids experimenting with their hair and fashion unless it is too outlandish. There has to be some limits. I certainly don't have a problem with a teenage boy growing his hair long or wearing an earring, or a teenage girl having several earrings or even a nosering, or very short hair, if it's done tastefully. I'm not thrilled with kids looking trashy however. The funny colored, silly looking, hair; or too many tattoos, or too much makeup or jewelry, or clothing that is too skimpy. It's fine to have a different look if it is done with some taste and class, that indicates to me individuality, maturity, and self-esteem. There is nothing wrong with differences in appearance. But at least keep some dignity and class and taste with it, and don't look too silly or like a circus clown, or that is how you will view yourself and others will view you the same! That can't be very good for a kid, or for an adult, for that matter. PLEASE, A LITTLE CLASS AND GOOD FASHION SENSE! ------------- Lady Maria |
Posted By: Isla Q.
Date Posted: April 20 2003 at 6:33am
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But tastes vary, Maria. What you see as fit for a circus clown, or just plain silly, can look beautiful to others. Even an unnatural hair colour can look beautiful. Remember when the singer Pink first became famous? Her hair was a really bright pink, and it looked so good on her. Made her stand out from the crowd, and that's not always a bad thing. It takes all kinds. ------------- |
Posted By: Lady Maria
Date Posted: April 20 2003 at 7:20am
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The singer Pink is a mediocre talent in my opinion. She needed a gimmick. The pink hair was a gimmick and it did get her attention. With a natural hair color she probably didn't have enough talent to have any measure of success. So I guess on that level it worked for her. 99% of the time, im ny opinion, when they color their hair pink, or purple, or green it looks stupid. And they usually have dumb looking makeup and jewelry and too many tattoos to go with it. It looks trashy, just like most of the rap/heavy metal/hip-hop/punk rock music is trashy . You look at the talented musicians; most of them with some exceptions,( it doesn't matter if it's r&b, pop, rock, alternative rock, Latin music, country or whatever), look classy or at least presentable, not like circus clowns with green hair, goofy makeup, too many tattoos,etc.. I'm 28, not 15, I'm a growup, I just don't need the noisy, stupid, clown routines you have in the too much of the entertainment business. I never did like that stuff that much. I like music and musicians who have some style, talent and class. You know, music for grownups. There are only a few of the punk looking bands that really have any talent. I can't help it, that is just how I feel about it. ------------- Lady Maria |
Posted By: Isla Q.
Date Posted: April 20 2003 at 8:23am
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Hey Maria, that's fair, that's the way you feel. I for one, think Pink is a very talented singer, and agree she's had some dubious hairstyles, but that first one looked great IMO. Tastes differ, and wouldn't the world be a boring place if everyone looked the same and liked the same things? I would however like to point out weaker point in your plea (for lack of a better word). You say you don't like all that "clown-stuff", and say that is for kids, and not for 'grown-ups'. But yet you admit you never liked that stuff anyway. So it really isn't a generation-related issue is it? It's simply a matter of different tastes. And I truly believe talent has nothing at all to do with looks. ------------- |
Posted By: Isla Q.
Date Posted: April 20 2003 at 8:25am
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Oh, and just for the record, I'm a grown-up too. ------------- |
Posted By: Lady Maria
Date Posted: April 20 2003 at 8:53am
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That's true, I never did like most rap, heavy metal and punk music, just a few groups. Even as a teenager I prefered r&b, Latin music and some of the better pop/rock bands. I have nothing against eccentrics or people who look and act silly. That is part of life. To each their own. But the people I admire as people; in the workplace, even entertainers, usually don't look like punks. Whether it's people in politics, business, the arts, or ordinary housewives or working women, the people I admire usually look and act like grownups. They don't look or act like punks. They don't usually have green hair, too much makeup, tattoos from head to toe,etc.. They don't blast rap music or punk or metal music out of their cars when they are driving. If you like people who act like that and look like that, that's fine. I just don't need it, and my fiancee, my friends, my family members, just aren't into that stuff and neither am I. I'm just being honest with you. To me it seems silly and immature to act or look like a punk. If other people disagree with me, that's fine. I do what makes me happy. ------------- Lady Maria |
Posted By: DaveDecker
Date Posted: April 20 2003 at 9:16am
Brent, I recall from my teens a couple of girls who had waist-lengh hair... one of them cut her hair quite short, out of rebellion against her parents who were very strict, though not about her hair being long. This seemed to mark a transition toward a downward spiral of increasingly detrimental choices. The other girl was raised by what you would call "liberal" parents. She was convinced by some of her friends that cutting her hair short would be fun and chic. Well she cut her hair short and then later found out that these friends had been jealous of her long hair and that that was their motivation for convincing her to cut her hair. The girl was furious and since she didn't like the short haircut anyway, began to grow it back out; by graduation her hair was nearly at her waist again. You see Brent, your generalizations are not always true. Without getting too deeply involved into political digression, one weakness I have noticed in self-professed conservatives is that they rely too heavily on the absolute truth of generalizations (such as you have sprinkled "liberally" throughout your responses). Do not infer my political beliefs or viewpoints on any topics, unless I specifically state them. I generally see myself as an independent thinker, who sees both merit and drawback to various viewpoints on boths sides of the political spectrum. Now, to comment more specifically on the above excerpt from you... For some teenagers who are generally "model" children, parents who refuse to let them wear their hair as they wish can actually create a rift between the generations and in turn lead to the child's desire to behave in mischevious ways. So it's not the unusual hairstyle choice that leads to detrimental behavior; rather, the choice of the unusual hairstyle may be a manifestation of the unresolved differences between the parents and child. Don't confuse cause and effect. ------------- |
Posted By: Isla Q.
Date Posted: April 20 2003 at 9:31am
It's not that I necessarily like all people who look different, I just don't divide people up into two categories: silly (as you put it) and non-silly. I don't like labels. So we agree to disagree. ------------- |
Posted By: Lady Maria
Date Posted: April 20 2003 at 12:31pm
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Isla, It isn't a question of "labeling" people. it's a matter of common sense. None of us are total islands. We live in a society with other people. While it's true you can't allways judge people by how they look, how people look reflects how they feel about themselves and how they relate to others. If a person has a pink or green mohawk, wears outlandish or skimpy clothes and is blasting rap or heavy metal music out of their car, most people associate that sort of look and behavior of a person as being juvenile, immature, or a silly way to look and behave. It's not about whether someone is "different" or not. It is about being taken seriously by others. There are other looks that people don't like on people as well. If people wear gang clothing and dress like gang bangers, people don't like it. If people looked dirty and grungy, people don't like it. Of course, to some degree, we judge people by how they look, even if that seems unfair, it is something all of us do. That is reality. And some people who look different are better accepted than others because they are considered more grownup or responsible, or less anti-social. As an example, men with very long hair like Dave, or men with an earring, or a woman with short hair or a nosestud like I have, if they are clean and wearing presentable clothes and behave like a grownup, they may be considered a little eccentric or different by some people, but are still taken seriously and accepted by most people. They aren't considered threating, or anti-social, or juvenile by most people. The "punk look" or the "gang look" is different. Most people don't take seriously people who look like a punk. Likewise, most people feel threatened by people wearing gang colors, or people are disgusted by people who are excessively dirty or grungy looking. In most adult's minds they associate certain looks and music with juvenile, immature behavior. That is a fact. If you don't believe me, get a pink or green mohawk and drive around in a car blasting rap, or heavy metal or punk rock music. See the reaction you get from people. I have nothing against people looking different. In some ways I'm different. But I have common sense. I have seen, many times, the reactions that people get from others if they look like punks. People think they are immature and silly. And the people who wear the punk look, most of them, know, unless they are very young, that people look at them as being immature and silly. And it's often hard for them to get jobs, so many of them are unemployed. Certain looks don't inspire trust or confidence in others. Some "different" looks are much less accepted than other "different" looks are. That is a fact. Most people accept me with a nosestud, but if I were to get a pink Mohawk and many visible tattoos, I would be judged much more, people would be suspicious of me or think I was immature or silly and if I was looking for work, might not hire me. And the looks that adults, employers, whatever, like the least are; people who look dirty, people who look like gang bangers, and people who look like punks. If you don't believe me, try these looks yourself. And it does matter at least to some degree, what others think of you, we are not total islands. We have to co-operate with society. That doesn't mean someone has to be a complete conformist, but it does mean you need at least some common sense. Plus, most punk looks just aren't that attractive, regardless of the social consequences of the look. And that statement, of course, is just my opinion. But I'm different enough Isla, I'm not getting a pink mohawk!(Tee hee). ------------- Lady Maria |
Posted By: uzma
Date Posted: April 20 2003 at 12:51pm
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Wow Lady Maria. I am lost for word's (OK not really, but shocked). Your "reality" and "facts" are the total antithesis of mine. I am unable to pre-judge people on the basis of appearance. I respect and take every man, woman, child and elder seriously regardless of what they look like, where they come from or even how they smell. Diversity is the reality of humanity that we are part of. I am unable to discriminate between "silly" or "acceptable" or anything else (thank God). Are you sure your opinions are not preventing you from having some brilliant insights and friendships? I met a guy who was a racist. Short of spitting in my face, he made it clear that he didn't like what I was and that I was in "his" country. We had to work together. Two years down the line he was crying on my shoulder after a relationship breakdown and said that I was the only true friend he had. I don't have piercings, wear much make-up, colour my hair, wear noticeaby "different" clothing from the social mainstream - yet still I get shouted at and abused in the street. This is beacause people discriminate against difference, mainly due to fear, under-cover of hatred. But the cause IS fear and ignorance. I'm not having a "go" at you. Our experiences and opinions are very different. I am just suggesting that if you give a little time to people whose appearance you dislike, you may be happily suprised to find that you love the person who wears that pink mohican. Uzma ------------- Uzi |
Posted By: Karen Shelton
Date Posted: April 20 2003 at 1:29pm
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Hi all, First of all, thank you all for honestly expressing your opinions. It has really been thought provoking for me in a number of ways. I force myself to set aside time every week to read newpapers & magazines that challenge me on a number of fronts to help me identify my own inner demons and try to be a better, more informed person. I find that this very thread, even though a little controversial, has helped me think about so many things...so thank you all so much for expressing yourselves. Let me start by saying that I do not have children. I made a choice in my mid 20s that I was going to follow my dreams of having a career and personally felt that I could not focus on more than one demanding life path at a time. I enjoy kids and have tried to be a good aunt and "adopted aunt". I actually have 6 nieces and nephews and am close to some of them. They range from 10-23 in ages. I also lived with a teenage stepson for 3 long and tortorous full time years :-). Although he did not rebel with wild hair colors or multiple piercings or even hair issues, he rebelled in many other teen ways that were more difficult to deal with. He refused to study or get good grades even though he was a very smart guy. He refused to work part time and when he was forced by his father, got fired from several jobs in a row including the very jobs that I had worked when I was putting myself through college. He left trash all over the house, left all the doors unlocked and sometimes wide open in the middle of the nite, he snuck out of the house at all hours to see his girlfriend and had a problem telling the truth. He refused to honor the rules of the house or even when he was grounded he would disregard his consequences of his actions. Bottom line, he was just being a teenager. I think his dad and I would have welcomed him having long hair over flunking out of school, getting fired from multiple jobs and getting a raft of speeding and traffic tickets. :-) The question PrettyBoi raised about his long hair is a difficult question to answer. I do not have my own biological children but I have my own form of kids. I also have hired and fired 3 different teens in a row at HairBoutique.com. Why? They showed up late, left early, didn't do their work, spent their time on their cell phones instead of dealing with HB.com customers and were terrible employees. Ironically I tried very hard to give them all the benefit of the doubt but ultimately they all were asked to leave. It hurt me to fire them but I always put my business as a priority and my customers come first, as it should be. So where am I with all this? I think there are two sides to every story. I think that we all have our own baggage and inner demons that are triggered by these types of topics (just like religion and politics) and I think that ultimately everyone has to follow their own heart in every decision that they make. Ultimately the choices we make as parents, as kids, as teen, as business owners...we have to live with and we have to deal with in our own ways. Thank you all for sharing your hearts and minds about this and for understanding that everyone has a right to own thoughts, feelings and opinions. Best wishes...Happy Easter to all of you.... Karen ------------- That which doesn't kill you makes you stronger or drives you totally insane. :-) |
Posted By: Brent
Date Posted: April 20 2003 at 2:01pm
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Dave: Your points are well taken but I am not a right wing extremist. I am moderately conservative and flexible with my kids. Some things I would allow, some things In wouldn't. Uzma: Come on lady, you know Maria pretty well by now. To compare her to a racist is totally absurd. That is the oldest left wing extremist trick in the book Uzma. If someone objects to some outrageous fashion, hairstyle or whatever the case, compare them to a racist. Oldest trick in the book. No one chooses their skin color or the culture or religion they were born into. People do choose to look like gang bangers and little immature punks. The fact is, with some exceptions as Maria noted, most people who look like punks are punks. Many of them are immature. One of the things that grown adults do is judge, we sum up people by their apperance. Certainly employers do this. That is part of life. Like Maria said, rightly or wrongly, that...is... reality!!!! You know that. Maybe you need to look at yourself. Liberals are not always morally superior and right. You are intolerant of anything but ultra-liberalism. I have an interacial marriage, I'm Caucasion ,my wife is East Asian. Don't ever compare me to racist, and Maria I'm sure isn't one either! |
Posted By: Isla Q.
Date Posted: April 20 2003 at 2:16pm
Ditto. Once again, Uzma, you put it into words I couldn't find. You write beautifully! Maria, I too was not "having a go" at you, simply pointing something out I got from your posts (and obviously disagreeing with you). I'm a law student, I'm trained to do that stuff, sorry if you felt like you were being attacked. Karen, thanks for sharing your story with all of us and for your wise words. Happy Easter everyone! ------------- |
Posted By: uzma
Date Posted: April 20 2003 at 2:56pm
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Isla Q - thank you for your kind words. Nice to know we are on the same wave-length. Brent - I am not accusing either Maria or yourself of racism. I am just pointing out that judging people by their appearance is not doing justice to either that person or yourself. This may be the way society operates but IMHO it is a fundamental error. Karen - I know where you are coming from. I have and am involved with "raising" children who are not mine by birth. Difficult behaviour in teenagers is a learning experience for all - LOL - I learnt patience, how to repeat myself ad nauseam, the subtle use of humour and above all tolerance while the storm is played out and sanity of sorts returns to the proceeding. Skills that are also useful for posting on these discussion forums - hehehehe - just kidding. Happy Easter folks!! Uzma ------------- Uzi |
Posted By: Karen Shelton
Date Posted: April 20 2003 at 3:21pm
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Hi Isla, Thank you for your kinds words. Uzma, You make me laugh so hard that the ROTFLOL seems too tame. Thank you. Best wishes, Karen ------------- That which doesn't kill you makes you stronger or drives you totally insane. :-) |
Posted By: Lady Maria
Date Posted: April 20 2003 at 7:17pm
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Thank you Brent. Thanks for your understanding. In fact you did draw an analogy between me and a racist Uzma, and I don't appreciate that. Mexican-Americans can't afford to look like punks Uzma. We face enough discrimination as it is, especially those of us who are not "White" Hispanics. We are stereotyped as being dirty, lazy, "foreign" and unpatriotic, and possibly criminal. None of this is true of course. Academic studies show that Mexican-Americans work the longest work week of any ethnic group in America, not only because so many of us were raised poor or working class and need the money but we have to prove to other people that we are hard working, and believe me no one works harder than Mexicans. We serve in the military more than just about any other group. We have to prove we are patriotic and we are. Even the poorest Mexican family allways keeps themselves neat and clean. We can't afford much but we can afford soap and water. We are amongst the cleanest people. And because of discrimination against us it is very important to us, for our pride and our honor, to allways look presentable. I was taught never to do anything that would disgrace myself, my family, or the Mexican people, to allways look and act in a dignified manner. I have faced racial prejudice. I have been told by both Black people and White people to "Go back to Mexico you foreigner" and worse things than that,(even though I am a 5th generation American from an English speaking family). I have had Black people threaten to kill me before, just because I am Mexican. When my father was a young man in Texas, he was severly beaten by a group of "Anglo" White thugs just because he was Mexican. My father was hospitalized after the beating for several weeks. They beat him with their fists, kicked him with their feet, and beat him with baseball bats. He suffered a concussion, both of his eyes were swollen shut, they broke his nose, they broke several of his ribs, and they broke both of his legs. One of his legs was broken so badly that to this day my father still limps. He still has scars on his face from the beating. Yet my father still loves America(he served honorably in the army when he was young), and he doesn't hate White people, in fact he likes the White guy I am getting married to. My father is a kind, gentle,hard-working, hohorable man. He did nothing to deserve that severe beating. I love my parents. They were strict and conservative with me but they were good to me. I would never disgrace them or my family by looking like a punk woman. What gets me is these teenagers and young adults, usually from wealthy suburbs, who dye their hair green, get all kinds of tattoos and wear too much jewelry, makeup,etc. and play loud awfull music and then claim that people are discriminating against them. They don't even know what REAL discrimination is. All they have to do is make themselves look presentable and not look like a punk and they can have anything they want. And they can fall back on their families money if they can't get a job. Most Mexicans can't afford that , we have to have honor and work hard. We have to look presentable, we can't look like punks and wouldn't want to. These wealthy punk kids quite honestly disgust me. They have everything handed to them. Where is their honor and pride? I am so glad I am not them. I wasn't raised rich but I have my integrity. I don't think you Uzma, or some of you other people on this board, understand Mexican-Americans, we are proud working class, patriotic people. We would never disgrace ourselves, or our families, by looking or acting like punks. ------------- Lady Maria |
Posted By: Karen Shelton
Date Posted: April 21 2003 at 12:35am
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To everyone on this thread, As I said before in an earlier post, everyone is entitled to their own opinions and thoughts and feelings. They all have validity and should be honestly considered. However, it is never appropriate to turn a good debate about hair into personal attacks in any way. I am not taking sides, I am not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone who has posted. I value and appreciate everyone's thoughts and feelings. Lady Maria, my apologies regarding your last post. Please understand that the post from Anonymous was a troll post that was designed to attack you and your feelings. The Anonymous post was deleted since it was meant to cause problems on this thread. A legitimate poster would have posted with their registered name. The IP address of the Anonymous poster indicated that they had troll intentions. We try very hard here on the Messageboards to eliminate all malicious posts from trolls or people who only care about causing trouble. A real member who disagrees with your post would post under their registered name and IP and not Anonymously. When someone is sincere about posting here they will register, which means the person is traceable via IP address. They will establish an identity that shows that they are legit in their interest in posting. It is wise to always be a little leery of unregistered posters, especially those who appear to post with messages that are designed to stir up trouble. Trolls love to stir up controversy and anger and then sit back and enjoy the show they created. Please don't let trolls manipulate you and your feelings. Best wishes, Karen Shelton HairBoutique.com ------------- That which doesn't kill you makes you stronger or drives you totally insane. :-) |
Posted By: Lady Maria
Date Posted: April 21 2003 at 9:07pm
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Thank you Karen. Yes that person "Anyomous" was just trying to cause trouble I'm sure. ------------- Lady Maria |
Posted By: Karen Shelton
Date Posted: April 22 2003 at 9:05pm
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Hi Lady Maria, I appreciate your response. I also sent you BMail about the topic but anyway, thank you so much for understanding. Best wishes, Karen ------------- That which doesn't kill you makes you stronger or drives you totally insane. :-) |
Posted By: wittils
Date Posted: April 22 2003 at 10:28pm
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I'm alittle late jumping in here, and I have not read all the posts... because I got snagged with what Brent was saying way back on April 18th about the bad kids having too much freedom... the ones with tatoos, piercings, and outlandish clothes are the ones in trouble most of the time. I am not going to argue on this, I just know in my family ( I have 4 sons, 1 daughter, and 1 stepson) that has not held true. Two of my sons keep their hair very short, almost military style. Two have long hair, shoulder length, one longer. My stepson has a short style. Let's just look at the two youngest... the clean cut is in a lot of trouble, the "long-hair" is the "A" student and has work ethics. The short hair is dabbling in stuff he should not be, and the long hair is clean. I will keep it short, have to go... but it's what is on the inside of the person, not the outside that makes you who you are. ------------- Precious is the day... it happens only once in a lifetime. |
Posted By: Lady Maria
Date Posted: April 23 2003 at 1:33am
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Wittlis, I can't speak for Brent but I reread his posts and he wasn't talking about teenage boys or young men with long hair, he was talking about teenage boys or young men or young women who dress like gang bangers or punks. Long hair on men is usually not the style these days of gangsters, punks, or hoodlums, like it was many years ago. Long haired young men are usually fairly peaceful or are artistic types or musicians who usually don't cause too much trouble and usually don't get into that much trouble. So it is not surprising that your long haired son isn't giving you too many problems. There are many working men too who have long hair, my fiancee is one of them, and people don't associate them with problems. It is different with people who look like gangsters or punks as both Brent and I were trying to explain. But this whole debate has really gotten off track and silly. Obviously if a young person looks too outlandish or anti-social like a gangster or a punk, with that type of clothing, hair, tattoos, etc. people will be sceptical of them, and some employers won't hire them, depending upon the job. If a young man or woman is doing sales work with the public for example, they usually don't hire a woman who is heavily tattooed with a green mohawk and 10 piercings in each ear, an eyebrow ring, and "Goth" makeup, unless it is a business that is a little avant-garde like a music store where they sell teenage music or maybe certain bars or coffeshops that cater to that type of crowd. But many conventional businesses won't hire them because obviously they don't want to drive away the general public and lose money. Obviously. If a young man is wearing very baggy pants that almost are falling off of him, has piercings all over his face and is wearing gang colors or a jacket of a local gang, he probably won't get hired for the sales job. Hair length isn't the issue, it is other things or if the hair is colored goofy or cut in a punk style. You see young people like this and some of them work someplace or another but many of them don't work, they live off of government checks, or off of family members and they seem to pride themselves on being anti-social and don't want to be part of society and work like the rest of us have to. Or they pride themselves on doing time in jail, or use alot of drugs or liqour or whatever. Unless you have lead a very sheltered existence I am sure you have met these type of young people or at least seen them around. And sure clean cut kids can get in trouble also but usually not as often as kids who are trying to be against society or anti-social. Some of them I am sure are just going through a juvenile phase that they will grow out of but some of them get into alot of trouble. That is all I was trying to say. And I think Brent understood what I was saying and added to what I wrote with his own take on it, and maybe a couple other people who have read this thread understood what I was saying. Everyone else said ,"Oh you can't judge people by how they look". Well of course there are exceptions, but usually people that try to look anti-social and like punks or like gangsters, often they are trouble. And many of them smell too even though alot of these kids are from wealthier families. They think they are being cool , being "grungy". If very poor Mexican immigrants who work hard for very little money can be clean and presentable, and try to get along with people, why can't youngsters from wealthy suburban families also wash, be clean, and be presentable? I guess I just don't understand why young people want to look anti-social and silly. I just wonder where their pride in themselves is. I guess I was raised differently. Even though we were working class Mexican-Americans, my family allways worked hard and were clean and presentable. To me self-respect and respect for others is more important than looking silly like an anti-social punk just to seem "cool". And it isn't just how they look, it is often how they act toward others. How a person presents themselves to the world is a reflection of what they think of themselves and others. That is obvious. Like Brent said, we have no choice about our ethnicity or skin color or how tall or short we are but we do have a choice in how we present ourselves to others and the respect we show to ourself and others. Sincerely, Maria ------------- Lady Maria |
Posted By: hairalways
Date Posted: April 23 2003 at 6:27am
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Everyone is making such great points here! I just had to jump in and say so. Maria, uzma, Brent, Karen, Princesa WOW....what diversity we have in all of your opinions. I agree in part with everyone's points. BUT the fact of the matter is, until you have carried for 9 months, stayed up all night with for a year after, then cried at every christmas pageant, everytime a friend hurts their feelings. Run them to the hospital with a broken leg or a fever of 105... You don't know what you are talking about. If you have done this, then you know - You have EARNED your right to have a say in how your child looks. NOTE: I said "have a say" NOT control. Most rebellious children are looking for someone to discipline them - They are "seeing where their boundaries lay" They start doing this at the age of 2 and don't stop until they move out. As i said in my earlier post, I would never tell my son (3 of them) how to wear their hair. However, it is known fact that it isn't the hair that is the problem, it is the attitude that comes with the hair that is the problem. I was a punk in high school and truly enjoyed looking different than the jocks - but I did not have the "nonconformist" attitude. I got good grades and was on my way to study medicine - my parents were cool about it. They were strict hispanic people too, they did not let me go out at night with my friends, but they did let me listen to my music and look how I wanted too. SO in essence - look to the other, more important issues you have with your parents prettyboi- Do they see you as you really are? or do they see you as the person they want you to be? Uzma - you are a rarity. It is in our blood since prehistory to judge based on looks. Zebras do not live with lions. It is part of our survival mechanism to search out our "pack" and become part of it in order to survive. In some people it is very obvious (your left wing elitists, conservatives, etc) for some it is conformity in nonconformism.....yes, they are a pack too. I am one of them. I have to stop this post now and get on with my life. jacqui ------------- |
Posted By: Brent
Date Posted: April 23 2003 at 12:14pm
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Jacqui; Yes this thread has been very interesting with diverse opinions. As I have stated, and I think Maria was saying this as well, it is not a matter of the parent attempting to control everything about a child's life or even control the way they look entirely, it is just letting the youngster know when they are going to an extreme that is not socially acceptable. Another word for it is guidance. That there are in fact limits, chilfren need to learn that. There is also authority and societal norms. At work you have a boss. Even if you run your own business you have to deal with others in the public. There is such a thing as "norms" of behaviour and even dress, that you at least need to be aware of . I'm not saying that people don't have the right to be outside of those norms, my contention is they have the right to do that as an adult when they are paying their own way and fully accepting the consequences of their actions. Children need to learn that there is such a thing as cause and effect, that what you do or how you dress will draw reactions from others. To give children the false sense that there are no consequences concerning how they look or behave is essentially to deceive them. That is, to give them a version of reality that really isn't true. It isn't advisable to give them a false idealistic illusion of how the world really works. Let kids experiment, yes but only to a point, and parents do have a certain amount of say over the minors in their care. If you were to upsurp that parental right which has worked for society for centuries and has been part of the backbone and structure of society, you aren't doing anyone any favors. Parents have to be flexible but children have to obey their parents as well. Most importantly, don't give kids any false illusions abpout reality, they have to know the bad as well as the good. They have to know that people in fact do judge them by their behaviour and their apperance. Good thread, I have enjoyed reading everyone's varying opinions and ideas! |
Posted By: hairalways
Date Posted: April 23 2003 at 1:27pm
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Brent - was your post directed to me? I wasn't sure. if so, you are preaching to the choir. I think I expressed my agreement with you and Maria (albeit, not as articulated as I would have wished, given I had only a few minutes to post)in my prior post. I believe that with time comes wisdom, which is why in our youth we are more spontaneous and "silly" as Maria puts it. ANd why when we are older, we move towards more peaceful and intelligent thinking. I believe that God brings us to the earth in the hands of two people (sometimes one, sometimes more!) because we are too small to care for ourselves and that until we can fly on our own, we must respectfully accept the guidance of our parents. I also believe that any child who resents the way their parents are raising them and still resents them as an adult - WAS NOT taught respect and will always have problems with authority. I think you agree with some of this - maybe you don't with some. I am glad that I have been able to read yours and everyone else's thoughts on this matter. I have a long road with my 4 kids and know that in order to make sure they make it into adulthood with their self esteem and identity as well as my love and support I will need to learn as much as I can.jacqui ------------- |
Posted By: Brent
Date Posted: April 23 2003 at 6:32pm
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Jacqui: I wasn't directing my statements at you specifically; just expressing myself a little for what it's worth. I knew by what you had written that you didn't have any major disagreements with what I had written. You have four kids huh! I've got three. They are sometimes a challenge even a hassle but they are worth it. I've decided not to trade them in for a new car. Have a nice evening. |
Posted By: wittils
Date Posted: April 25 2003 at 2:44pm
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Just to add alittle more... I have a very large family... (5 of my own and a stepson). I have learned a lot through the years, as I was a single parent for 8 years. My childrens' father was not involved in their lives at all after the divorce, so it was just me. I may have been too "liberal" in the area of how they dressed overall. But cleanliness was top priority for me with them, they wore clean clothes, had clean hair, and didn't smell like a walking gym room. I know I was more concerned and strict about being honest at home and out in the world, having good morals, etc. As for styles... with 4 teenager boys, each had his own. And I did not want to interfere with how they expressed themselves. Was I lucky? Or did my personal values come across to them. Two have always kept their hair short. (One eventually enlisted and was in the 82nd Airborne Division, my 18 year old wants to enlist as a Marine). They were always clean cut all the time. The two that have long hair, the 22 year old and the 15 year old) are very artistic and gentle natured young men. When the older of the two was 15 he dressed more gothic. He never punked out, but a lot of his friends did. They were the nicest group of kids, I loved his friends. It wasn't until after all of them turned 18 that the three oldest got tatoos. So they respected that wish that I had about tatoos and piercings. My 18 year old and the 22 year old have a piercing. I worked in a professional office and two of the men had waist length hair. One of them had three piercings on one ear. When I was first hired I was surprised to see this. Yet I realize that they were hired for their intelligence and experience and that far out weighed their personal choice about their appearances. Could it be discrimination not to hire one despite his qualifications based on his appearance. More and more I see wild hair, piercings, etc. in places you would not expect it. It shows me that their is more acceptance these days. Or maybe it's just that I live on the West Coast and other places are more conservative. I personally try not to label a person just because they appear one way or another. Outward appearances don't mean too much to me. I don't care how clean cut a person is. I do care if they are dishonest, lazy, smelly, and all of that. And being clean cut does not make one honest, hard working, fresh smelling, etc. I have to go back and finish reading the rest of the posts. I got caught up on Brents statements. Having 4 teenage boys and literally dozens of their friends from all walks of life come and go in my house, all styles imaginable to say the least, I have never met a bad kid yet. Maybe it's luck, or maybe it's because these young individuals are good to the core, just simply expressing themselves. wittils ------------- Precious is the day... it happens only once in a lifetime. |
Posted By: Unregistered Guest
Date Posted: April 25 2003 at 8:09pm
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*In response to all the entries directed towards me* Brent: " I get a kick out of people that talk about 'freedom' for kids and how us parents have to be 'sensitive' to kids and let our 14 year olds dye their hair purple, get tattoos, get eyebrow and lip piercings, and so forth." Princessa: I do not have a tattoo and I only have one piercing on each ear and that is the way I want it to stay Brent: "Ask any school principal or social worker or cop that works with teenagers, they will tell you that the kids that are allowed to look or dress however they like are usually, with some exceptions, also the kids who take drugs, hang out with the wrong crowd, end up getting pregnant at 15, or going to jail, or heaven forbid, die of a drug overdose or get involved with guns." Princessa: I am that exception, I cannot dress the way I want be cause of my religion but I wouldn’t change the way I dress because I like to wear long skirts. I come from strict backround but I do not go and dress in a bad manor in fact I wear long skirts one inch above the ankle is the highest my skirts go. I am in High School, currently enrolled in the Army JROTC program. I wear pants while in the JROTC uniform. I plan to go in to the Army Reserve and to go to college and be in financing or study cosmetology. Never tried any type of drug because I know they are not good for me so I made this decision. Brent: "The type of kids at Columbine who shot up their school were spoiled kids allowed to dress how they liked by their "liberal" parents, they were so typical of that type of liberal mindset. The kids who join street gangs, and I don't just mean poor inner city kids, sure they dress and wear their hair however they like. These are the "Dead End Kids", social misfits, the kids who end up in psych wards, chemical dependency treatment centers, sometimes in prison or the morque." Princessa: that is your opinion, quite frankly that is a biased decision I am in honors classes, I have great "manners, morality and cleanliness." Where appearance is concerned" I changed my hair color because I wanted something different and out of the ordinary. I only streaked my hair so it wasn’t that drastic and I was happy, I was not considered a misfit of any type. I decided to dye my hair back because I was very proud of wearing the JROTC uniform and it could not be worn with purple, pink or green hair. My brother is currently in the Army in Baghdad he died his hair completely blue after I did mine and it looked fine. Do you think he is a "losers or misfit". He is serving this country and he did what you would consider a losers action by dying his hair blue. I think Isla was correct with "Never judge a book by it's cover". As Lady Maria said "I do what makes me happy." I think you all owe me an apology for making false judgement on me, it’s a shame I wont be around long enough to read them. This will be my final entry like uzma said I have " low self-esteem by having personal volition knocked out" of me by people like you. I too come from a strict Mexican-American family. *Princessa* |
Posted By: Brent
Date Posted: April 25 2003 at 8:32pm
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I was talking in general terms Princessa, not about specific individuals. if I insulted you a little, I apologize. Western society, - in many folks opinions, and not just the opinions of the far right wing or religious conservatives, ---has become too liberal and undisciplined and tolerant of bad behaviour for our own good. Too much "Anything goes" including how our young people look and behave, and the two are sometimes, but not always, related. I don't know you or your family personally so I cannot make a comment about you personally. other than what you wrote,- and of course you are correct, there are many exceptions to the rule. I was generalizing, which is what all of us are doing when we are talking on large issues about society. When we are talking about specific individuals, it may be different, there are exceptions to the general rule. If I offended you I apoligize but I do not retract what I said: that parents do have some say so in their children's lives including how they look. If children look too extreme, they will be judged by others, that is reality, whether you think that is fair or not. People that look like punks or look menacing or radical in their hair, fashion and clothing will be judged by others. It doesn't matter if you or I think it is fair, it is part of life. I am not saying someone can't look extreme, it's a free country:- ........ but they should know how you look, and what you do, in other words, how you are perceived by others, does have some affect on you:- for example in employment, and there are other examples of how it can affect relationships. There are consequences to how we look and act , there is cause and effect.- That's a fact! |
Posted By: Brent
Date Posted: April 25 2003 at 8:42pm
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Wittils: Piercings are more common than before, especially earrings for men and noserings for women. ....however in much of the business world, extreme fashion is still not accepted.It simply depends on how extreme the fashion. There is a trend toward "wilder" fashions, yet the opposite trend is also happening in many places, including the West Coast where you and I are from. Many people I know are actually more conservative in how they dress, I have noticed that trend too. There is also no doubt that the big cities of the West Coast are more liberal than most other places in America and the world: - they don't call it the "Left Coast" for nothing. |
Posted By: Vineman
Date Posted: April 26 2003 at 9:58am
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This really sucks. My Dad doesn't want me with long hair - It's not the length so much as the messy shape it's in that I can't help and don't always mind, so he'd rather it short so would my Mum it seems. It really pisses me off he forced me to get a haircut on numerous occasions, but I purservered and he eventually gave up. I still have the same problem with wanting to dye my hair though. And Lady Maria that is a nasty Generalisation - I am what people here call a freak and we suffer horrible prejudice just for looking different. All the people I know who have dyed their hair unnatural conlours are very nice and a lot kinder than most boring elitist "Well Presensted" people. If you actually KNEW some of these people it would be different. I'm sure you may have faced prejudiced for having very short hair at some point, well it feels even worse for young people as they get it all the time and are at an insecure time of their life. In the end many get pressured into being assimiliated into another boring cog in the Workforce machine - Causing the world to move backward socially. Talented Musicians with odd hair? Flea from the Chili Peppers very often sports brigth blue/green hair and he is one of the most talented bassists around. Jonathan Davis from Korn is a great Singer - most people just consider it shouting but very few singers put that kind of emotion into their singing. Kurt Cobain was a true musicial genious, he dyed his hair numerous colours. Matt Bellamy from Muse had massive spikes very reminiscant of the Punk style - but the style of his Music is nothing like Punk (not that Punk is bad) and has a lot of classical influence in it as well as being over all alternative rock. I myself inted to have bright colours in my hair soon enough - it's already odd looking cause it's big. It does not mean I'm a bad person. I do rebel against authority, but not in a stupid "I dopen't like teh cops tey suck" sort of way but in a more sensible philisophical way. I think that bright colours in hair are very nice and I often find them very pretty on girls - there's only about 5 basic natural colours you can dye your hair Black, Dark Brown, Brown, Red Brown, (Orange) Red and Blonde (Since you have one already it's only 5). So why not expand the spectrum? Researching before speaking always creates a benefit. |
Posted By: Lady Maria
Date Posted: April 26 2003 at 1:15pm
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You are young Vineman, wait until you have to earn a living and support a family. And no, most people aren't prejudice against me because I wear a short pixie, it is a fairly common style with women, and most people are not that prejudice against men with long hair if it's well groomed. But if you make yourself look too unusual or too much like a punk, you have to deal with how people look at you and it could cause you problems. And working is a not just being a cog in a machine, if people didn't work we wouldn't have our goods and services that we need to survive. Society would collapse. Working is a necessity of life, it isn't just for fun, we have to work to survive as a species. But you will learn that too. Now if you are a rock musician or an artist and can actually make your living that way (and most people can't, most people have to take ordinary jobs to feed themselves and their families), I suppose you can look more unusual. But you are young Vineman, you will learn about all of this when you grow up, go out into the workforce, get married, start a family,etc.. ------------- Lady Maria |
Posted By: uzma
Date Posted: April 26 2003 at 2:50pm
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Vineman I, for one, would love to live in a society where people are not judged by their appearance. Observing the natural world, animals within a sub-species look mostly the same. Although we are also animals (mammalians) we are more. Our brains are blessed with the gift of intellect and creativity. These things differentiate humans from animals, and I can add sense of humour and compassion to that list. Personally, I love the cycles of nature. I value the transitions each human goes through in terms of growing up - puberty, menopause, ageing - all the various stages of life are transformative. We are all work-in-progress. I also feel that the creative energy of humans, when applied to external "art" and to themselves in their experimentation and choice of dress/self-modification/etc. is a magnification of that special gift of creativity. It is a natural and healthy thing. I do not and will not draw any stock conculsions as to what the individual behind the persona is like/what they think, etc. I know many people who look like a stereotypical whatever and are actually wonderful, talented, respectful, deep-thinking and caring. The un-thinking elements in society may judge these very same people - by their appearance - as deviant, violent, dependent on hand-outs, drugged, lazy and useless. Society is complex because it is made up of individuals and groups with differing, sometimes conflicting ideas and beliefs. Society is also simple (simplistic?) in it's near zero tolerance of difference. It is insensitive to anything or one that doesn't idolize and comply with the mass hallucination that it is the only "reality" possible to us, and that it provides the only model for human progress. My concluding advice to you is this: Be yourself without compromise. Your appearance is yours and not the property of others unless you so choose. For if you join the brigade that serves conformity, you may pay a high price that no one tells you about. Eventually, you reach mid-life (or later) realizing that the sacrifice you made in order to earn the good opinions of others, has cost you your creative soul, your self-esteem and your inner integrity. Just my humble subjective opinion based on my limited life experience. Take care. Uzma ------------- Uzi |
Posted By: wittils
Date Posted: April 26 2003 at 3:35pm
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Parents have the responsibility to provide for the child they chose to give life to, but not the right to take that child's expression away. Alot of love and support goes a long way. Uzma, what you said touched me to the core... about the sacrifice made in order to please others having a price. I lived that price, and perhaps this is why in my 25 years of being a parent I worked hard at being understanding, fair, and not dictative. Supportive, corrective, and offering guidance... always. My kids learned from me and their own choices. Sometimes the life lessons do hurt. Yet we are all very close. We don't agree on all things. That's okay. I love each one, and each son is so different from the next. They all grew to who they are today, and hopefully are continuing to grow. My second oldest son dressed in a way sometimes that could have brought embarrassment to me... but I valued him as a person more than the stranger's glances or look of disapproval. He "found" himself in time, and it wasn't for me to dictate how he was to find himself. That would have only brought interference and distraction to him and perhaps delayed his personal growth. Today he is a starving musician. Very talented. Sense this is a hair board I will mention that he has the most wonderful long curly hair. He has beautifully done tatoos. (I dislike tattos, but some are truly works of art). He is a gentle soul that would give you his coat and shirt even if it were his last. I try not to judge, but I do. Because sometimes when I see a super clean cut kid (like one of my son's) who is simulating their parents ways, I think there are deeper issues involved and that there is really a passive rebellion going on. Still waters run deep, very deep sometimes. Just my thoughts, wittils ------------- Precious is the day... it happens only once in a lifetime. |
Posted By: Lady Maria
Date Posted: April 26 2003 at 5:01pm
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I don't think anyone is telling Vineman he can't do what he wants. And of course there is a huge amount of variety and individuality in western society, including in hair and fashion. What I, and others like Jacqui and Brent are pointing out, is that if you go too much to an extreme there are consequences you have to deal with, that is obvious. That is all we are basically saying. But the kid will find out for himself how far he can take things. Also one of the most common forms of conformity there is, is the conformity of "non-conformity", or being contrary to the "straight, adult" world. You know, like when you are a kid, if they tell you that you can't do something, then you will do it just to prove to them that you can do it. The "contrary thing". The conformity of "non-conformity". The idea of; "Well if my parents or my boss tell me I can't look outrageous, then I will try to look as outrageous and bizarre as I can look". There is a desire of many young people( and some older people), to be contrary to authority or the "straight, adult" people of society, the so-called "conformists". There is this idea that the grownup world "forces" us to conform and won't let us look any way we want to look, no matter what. Most people outgrow that phase and realize that the "Straight, adult" world isn't denying you your individuality, you can wear many different fashions or hairstyles, but some styles and fashions are too over the top for many people to accept. The same is true with behavior. If you have a glass of wine with dinner it is socially acceptable in most countries. If you drive drunk or shoot Heroin and become an addict, it is not accepted. In how we look and behave there are limits. Only a fool would think there are no limits. But the kid will find out for himself what he can and can't get away with, and when you have to pay the bills,( especially if you have kids who are depending on you), it changes everything. And being a "non-conformist" (who in their own way are conformists), becomes less important and you find ways to express your individuality without going too much to an extreme, an extreme that in fact might not be accepted where you work or in your relationships. ------------- Lady Maria |
Posted By: Lady Maria
Date Posted: April 26 2003 at 5:29pm
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Uzma, Modern western societies accept almost any kind of behavior and fashion style, from every kind of sexuality to any kind of fashion, to almost any kind of behavior. There are even groups trying to legalize not only gay and lesbian marriages but much more extreme things like pedophlia! There has never been, and I'm sure you know this if you know history, a society so extremely individualistic as modern western societies. We are liberal and individualistic to the extreme compared to most countries on earth,(including Muslim societies) and more liberal than most societies throughout history! Just about any kind of lifestyle has advocacy groups these days. It just about is "anything goes". Individualism to the extreme and everyone trying to be "contrary" isn't any more healthy than the opposite; like a strict religious state like the clerics in Iran impose on people, an ideology that rules by strict religious rules and that makes all women clothe themselves in a long black dress and headscarf, and many other rules everyone is expected to obey. Like I believe Brent said at one point on this website, the problem with western countries isn't the lack of individuality or "liberals", we have that everywhere. With us it is more the opposite. Everyone, not only in fashion, but in many ways, is individualistic often to an extreme. I believe there has to be a balance between individual liberty and the common good. In regards to fashion you just have to use your common sense in any given situation and use your human brain to be able to discriminate and make distictions of what is acceptable and what isn't in any given situation. THAT is what seperates humans from the other animals; our ability to judge, analysize, and at times use our discretion and to discriminate according to the circumstance. Animals don't judge people by their fashion , humans do! That is one of our traits, along with compassion and many other traits of humans. If someone smells bad or looks outrageous or is talking extremely loud and obnoxious, or whatever, we judge them and we discriminate. That is something humans have allways done and probably will allways do. It is part of our intelligence as humans. You have to know that there are limits and you use your human intelligence in any given situation to try to figure it out. We do this in many ways, every day. It is parrt of our intelligence and the human condition. ------------- Lady Maria |
Posted By: uzma
Date Posted: April 26 2003 at 5:50pm
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I think the conformity of non-conformity is undoubtedly true of certain groups. Group identification offers a safe identity. Herd instinct again. Necessary for survival some would say. However, there is also the process of self-actualization which by it's intensely personal nature and by it's very definition is non-conformist. This is the individual expressing their true, unique nature from the inside out. As children and teenagers we embrace this expansive growth in fits and starts and stumble through it with periods of rebellion, despair, breakthroughs of understanding and the development of identity. We develop our ideal(ized) vision of the self and sometimes it is like a need to truly breathe and desperately so. As we approach adulthood, we are systematically taught that we must see ourselves through the eyes of others and their sense-based and appearance-biased judgements. Survival in society (we are told) is based on the acceptance of others and they will not accept us unless we adjust our outerselves to their vision of respectability and acceptability. BANG goes the inner vision of ourself. Something is stunted, harmed, distorted, hidden away and in some cases, permanantly lost. Society does not even acknowledge it's existence in the first place - it doesn't give it a name - so eliminating it from the conscious thought of the individuals that make up the masses. It is the individuals relationship with themselves that society hijacks. That clear true voice of the evolving human is overshadowed and overcome by the needs of society that requires numbed, fearful, trivial pawns to play it's game and fuel it's machine. The machine (they say) provides our food, occupation...all our needs....and it's the only way. It is honourable and respectable to function as part of this system that has deprived you of your evolving, actualizing spirit. Is it? Really? ------------- Uzi |
Posted By: Brent
Date Posted: April 26 2003 at 6:41pm
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Uzma, my dear Uzma: Please!!! I know I am not inwardly deprived or distorted because I sometimes have conformed to the greater society,.... including , I might add......., in the way I look. I would assume Maria hasn't lost much of her inner self either considering how opinionated and feisty she seems to be.......(Does that remind you of someone Uzma???) Actually Uzma I can see your point of view it is not good to judge people by how they look too much. But I have to be honest with you Uzma, I judge people every day. The San Fransisco Bay area has many qualities that I truly love but there are many high crime areas here and I judge people who look like young punks or criminals. California is saturated with such characters and each year many, many, very many, people get their cars stolen , get robbed, sometimes much worse than that. We have got plenty of crime. Very rarely is a middle aged "normal" looking guy like me the perpetrator of the crime. It is usually the ill-mannered, weird-looking or gangster looking punks in the 14 to 30 year old age group that are into crime........Am I generalizing?, of course, my life could depend on it! .... Could I be killed by a clean cut looking 40 year old, or even an old long-haired hippie dude??,..... Perhaps, but the odds are against it. Not to mention the fact that I can't stand rap music and some of the other teenage racket. I don't stop my kids from listening to it, but they don't listen to it when I'm around, (and the good thing is they are not all that much into rap anyway, thank the Lord! )...they can listen to rubbish on their own time. .......They can also dress or wear their hair however they like when they grow up, move out and pay their own way. Until then:... their mother, myself, and their step-mom lay down the law. You are quite the lady Uzma, in many, many ways I respect you and get a kick out of you, but I am just not as nice a person or as liberal as you are. I judge people every day. The way I figure it, there are 6 billion people on earth, 7 million in the San Francisco Bay area. Most of them I will never know and never care to know or have time to know. Yeah I judge people.... I have time for some people, even intelligent people who disagree with me like you Uzma!,... but others I just don't have time for, and I don't feel the least bit inwardly or outwardly deprived!!! Not in the least!!! Oh yeah, as far as reality being a mass hallucination, it often seems like it, doesn't it,..... until this reality hits you upside the head with a two by four!!!..... Like when you are victimized by a crime ...or have to listen to racket coming from your neighbor's stereo at 4 a.m......, or even when you lose a job or can't get a job because you won't conform to this terrible godawful system we have created! !! Reality to me isn't a mass hallucination, it is simply everyone judging everyone else, taking stuff they know from their experience and their instincts into account. .......It really is nasty sometimes isn't it, kinda mean too. ....Ouch!! Still I usually like most humans, even the conforming squares.....Am I a conforming square?? Good question. Have a very good evening . |
Posted By: uzma
Date Posted: April 26 2003 at 7:15pm
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Brent I would like to think I know where you are coming from. We have gang-related crime in London and it's on the increase. And gang members have a uniform that makes them identifiable to each other and society at large. I find the whole gang scene infantile and barbaric. I do not think these are individuals in a state of personal evolution (I'm being deliberately judgemental and generalising now), rather they are an example of extreme conformists. They have sold-out on that intellectual discrimination Maria spoke of for a collective identity that provides them with pseudo-pride and pseudo-achievement. It is false because it is destructive, parasitic and harmful to others. Yes, there are limits - to behaviours - not appearances. London appears to be a fairly tolerant place in terms of individual expression. But those with even marginally different views are pretty thoroughly sifted out of the mainstream. On a recent thread on this board, (posted by Kir), a young aspiring lawyer in the UK cut her long hair, against her own wishes, because she perceived a clear message that it wasn't professionally acceptable. This is an indication of the social attitudes that I am taking a stance against. I would question how much this society is free and liberal and indulgent of expressions of individuality. In my experience, people are brought into "line" subtly at first and then through manipulation and finally through punishment. Admittedly, there are a greater number of tribal, class, etc. groups in the West than in the culture-bound traditionalist societies of the East (another gross generalisation on my part). This is due to political and social causes (immigration, larger population, nuclear units and the promotion of "lifestyles" to accompany certain viewpoints and make money out of them). Looking at this one could easily mistake this diversity of groups as the rise of individualism. Scratch beneath the surface and the facade shatters. Good evening to you too, Brent. Take care Uzma ------------- Uzi |
Posted By: Lady Maria
Date Posted: April 26 2003 at 8:56pm
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I'm amazed Uzma that a woman can't wear her hair long and be a professional, like a lawyer in Britian! In America, at least every place I have been here, you see women professionals all of the time in business, science, law,etc. who have long hair, some of them with very long hair, and you see many women with short hair too, some like me, with quite short hair. Hair length on women doesn't seem to matter at all in the U.S., assuming the woman has clean hair. I'm amazed that a woman can't wear long hair in the U.K., I never knew that. Are you sure that is true everywhere in Britian? In America in fact many places of employment like long hair on women, there are many traditional people here that like it better than short hair on women, although short hair on women is pretty well accepted too. With men it is a bit different. You do see long haired guys working in business, they usually tie their hair back in a ponytail, but most men in business wear their hair medium or short in length. With blue collar guys, or guys who run their own business like the guy I'm with, they can wear their hair however they want pretty much. What I think I was refering to was more of the "teenage punk" look or the "criminal" look. America is pretty free however, regarding hair length. In the professions women are expected to wear a dress or a nice pants suit, but that doesn't bother most professional women, they like to dress classy like that anyway it makes them feel sharp and professional. Guys usually wear a suit or a sports coat, some jobs require ties too but many don't nowadays. There are some rules about it, but it isn't bad, really there is quite a bit of flexibility and variety allowed. As far as us not being free to be individuals, I can't speak for you but I do pretty much what I like in life. I watch the movies and T.V. shows I like, I listen to the music I like, I am marrying the guy I want to, even though he is a different ethnic group than me(he is of Northern European heritage, and you know I am of Mexican heritage), I wear my hair quite short ,(true I don't have green hair or shave my head but I have no desire to do that). I do pretty much what I want. I don't feel at all like society forces me to do anything unless I was to really get outrageous in my look or behaviour, which I don't feel like doing anyway. And I believe Americans do have the lifestyles they want. Look at the gay/lesbian thing. Most people are hetrosexual in America and being a religious society most people aren't thrilled about homosexuality, but homosexuals work and pretty much live their lifestyle the way they want to, at least in the major cities. They even have political groups in both major political parties and have their own nightclubs, pubs, coffeeshops where mostly, but not exclusively, gays and lesbians go, and they are mostly employed and many of them are rich! Would that be possible in most non-western societies? I'm not thrilled about the gay/lesbian thing, especially their political influence, but I accept it, I accept their right to do what they like. It is true they haven't been granted formal marriages but they do have " domestic partnership" rights in many states which is legally like a marriage, they can inherit wealth, share benefits,etc.. That is extremelly liberal! How many non-western countries would accept that? In most countries they still believe gays and lesbians should be boiled in oil or something. That is just one example, there are many other examples of how America, Britian and the West are far more tolerant of individuality and different lifestyles and fashions than most countries. Compare us in North America or Western Europe to East Europe, Latin America, the Middle East, Africa, many parts of Asia, we ARE MORE LIBERAL, obviously. And it isn't just because of ethnic diversity and immigration either. A huge percentage of Latin Americans come from immigration. They have alot of ethnic diversity. They have Spanish, Portugese, Germans, Italians, Black Africans, various types of Native Indians, many mixed race people. They even have recent immigrants from East Europe and Japan and Korea. They are very diverse. But their culture is quite traditional, more than the U.S.. I have been to Mexico it is like the more conservative parts of the rural American Midwest or South in most parts of Latin America. Oh sure Mexico City and a few other big cities there have liberal neighborhoods, but generally Latin America is very conservative. And as I understand it by talking with Arab and Asian immigrants, the Middle East and Asia are even more conservative than Latin America. The U.S. and West Europe is very liberal by comparison, even if there is some limits imposed on us. I don't know about you Uzma but I pretty much do what I feel like doing, I feel very much like an individual and I think you can tell by my writings that I express how I feel on various subjects. I'm sorry you feel restricted in the U.K. but are you sure some of these restrictions you aren't putting on yourself? I have been told by people from the U.K. or Americans who have visited there, that they felt quite free there, that in many respects it was like being in the U.S.. I didn't realize you feel so restricted! No wonder you are fighting myself and Brent so hard on this board! I suppose you think we are somehow trying to restrict you too, in some way! Well I assure you Uzma I DO NOT want to restrict you and I for sure won't tell you to cut your hair if you don't want to! I am sorry if you feel like I am trying to restrict you, I am not! God bless Uzma! ------------- Lady Maria |
Posted By: uzma
Date Posted: April 27 2003 at 5:45am
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Oh Maria You are soooo sweet. I don't feel restricted by having open discussions with people who have a different viewpoint - yourself and Brent. On the contrary, I find it a good exercise in developing and refining new and old ideas. It's great tonic for the mind!!! Britain is a much smaller place than the US - and not just in terms of land mass. The national temperament is different and, until recently, immigration was either from the Indian sub-continent or from the Carribean. These groups came to form the under-class. Much time has passed and there has been a certain degree of integration between the immigrant and host communities.........OK. I'm not going there...that's a whole new can of worms and will take us way off the primary subject of this thread. Society/the media/the government (generalist terms) tries to control the masses. Where crime is concerned, this is right. Where the indivdual's identity, self-development and appearance is concerned, this is wrong. When parents fear the opinions of society at large, they naturally try to protect their kids from the prejudice they may face by teachers, employers, their peers, etc. Unwittingly, perhaps, the parents become "social police" and the children become subject to restrictions of various sorts. I will reiterate that disciple is very important. A child must be shown the fruits of discipline and how/why it can/should become self-disciplined as part of it's growth into adulthood. However, lets not confuse rational discipline with irrational control. I have both witnessed and experienced parental/partner control as an extension of social control. Parenting is itself a growth experience and pretty exahusting. Both parents and kids should be able to get though their respective growing pains and emerge stronger and wiser. I hope this is generally the case. Sometimes the opposite is true. Sometimes those that are severely controlled become abusers and end up victimizing others. That is the language they have learned at their parent's feet. They have learned that brutal control of another human being is the only way love is expressed. I am now talking about the extremes (which are becoming more common in my environment) of warped behaviours. A spirit is not permitted to blossom and bear fruit - so there is no way it will allow another to grow and express itself. It is too painful to behold. A reminder. I'm just trying to support those with whom I empathize. Those that have been subject to the indignity of control as children, teenagers and adults. I sincerely hope that I am empathizing with a minority of humanity. However, we all need voices to speak up for us. Take care Uzma ------------- Uzi |
Posted By: Lady Maria
Date Posted: April 27 2003 at 6:36pm
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Uzma, I understand what you are saying. God bless Uzma! ------------- Lady Maria |
Posted By: hairalways
Date Posted: April 28 2003 at 11:29am
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Here,Here! Uzma! I could not agree with you more. Although I do agree that out of mutual respect, a parent has earned the right to have a say in their child's appearance, and the child has a responsability to his/her parents to show respect for this. I do not believe in using control as a means to entrap someone into loving you. I am a direct recipient of this type of treatment and know how it can suck the life out of you. I no longer allow myself to be taken there and as a result, have been able to change my relationships with those who did this. But it was a hard road and the years leading up to it were black. I exaggerate - grey. Anyway - What you're saying is true - parenting is a long, hard road. I think it is best to lead with the laws of nature and God, Allah, Buddha. I don't believe appearance is anywhere in there - only good acts. I don't think that looks will hold you back if you are intrinsically good and a doer of great things. It will only close doors in places where narrow minds live. Maybe you don't want to be there anyway. Like I mentioned before. It is the ATTITUDE behind the huge changes in appearance that I am afraid of. I hope to guide my kids away from that. I don't feel that changing the way you look in order to get a place in the world is a sellout. Most extremely different people are beyond that anyway. Do you think Van Gogh looked any different than the average Joe? He was brilliant and different inside (insane I might add! that is neither here nor there). OK - maybe the ear was a bit different - bad example. What about Steven king? A more insanely different ******* could not exist! He doesn't need physical expression to show this. I myself am extremely different - inside(in my personality) I have wild hair and tattoos...but I am also practical enough to know that no matter how many different colors of hair I have or tattoes I put on, I could never be as different as I already am. I think our kids will eventually learn this too. If given the chance. jacqui ------------- |
Posted By: Lady Maria
Date Posted: April 28 2003 at 6:38pm
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Interesting points you make Jacqui! ------------- Lady Maria |