conditioning
Printed From: HairBoutique.com
Category: Hair Talk
Forum Name: General Hair Talk
Forum Description: A free wheeling discussion of hair related topics.
URL: https://talk.hairboutique.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=6255
Printed Date: August 05 2025 at 7:50pm
Topic: conditioning
Posted By: Unregistered Guest
Subject: conditioning
Date Posted: February 24 2003 at 2:30pm
| Is it possible to damage or negatively affect your hair by over-conditioning. By this I mean will conditioning too much cause your hair to become weaker or frizzy? I have been trying the conditioner-only washing for about two weeks. I "wash" about every two or three days w/ White Rain conditioner and use Biotera conditioner every day whether I wash or not. Plus - I've been deep conditioning once a week w/ an avacado/mayo/honey mixture. I leave it one for about two or three hours - rinse and then put the Biotera in my hair and leave IT on overnight. To combat buildup - I tried mixing a little baking soda with the White Rain and was planning on doing that about once a month. So I guess I really have two questions - the original one and also - what do other posters think of this routine? |
Replies:
Posted By: Sophie
Date Posted: February 24 2003 at 7:14pm
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Depending on your hair type and the conditioners used...especially moisturizing conditioners, yes. Moisturizing Conditioners are meant to soften hair and in my opinion too much, means weaker. Of course this does depend on the product. I'm not familiar with the products you mentioned, accept that Bioteria, I assume, is a knock off of Biologe. Biologe is a moisturizing line.IMO. Think of your hair like a sponge, The more it absorbs the more swollen it becomes. If hair is over moisturized it becomes weaker. Here is another good analogy; Pasta...Too dry and its brittle. Too wet and its mush. And you were right about over-moisturized hair being frizzy...The moisture is absorbed into the hair so much that the cuticle is open...If that cuticle does not get shut down again it remains open after the hair is dry....So, the hair looks dry. I suggest adding protein to your regimen...IMO, Redken Cat Protein is still the best and not that expensive. StyleOn  ------------- Sophie http://salonwest.proboards34.com - http://salonwest.proboards34.com |
Posted By: Lyris
Date Posted: February 25 2003 at 7:41am
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Hi there! I politely disagree that conditioning can damage hair. Protein, as Sophie rightly observed, is good for strengthening hair (though not very much.) However, protein IS a conditioning agent, just like all those other sundry additives that claim to "soften" hair! They all work the same way, whether it's panthenol, quaternary conditioning agents, collagen, elastin or protein: They cling to and coat the hair shaft, thus providing a smoother surface and a little protection against the elements (but again, conditioners cannot repair hair or significantly reduce the risk of future damage.) True, some agents do swell the hair shaft, which can be a damaging process IF it is through the use of an alkaline (basic) substance such as permanent hair dye. The high pH expands the shaft, allowing the dye to get inside the cuticle. That is a drying process and will cause damage. The same is true for some volumizing agents such as ammomium xylenosulfate, which also makes the hair shaft expand and eventually causes damage. However, some moisturizing agents such as propylene glycol and glycerin slightly plump the hair shaft because they are water-binding agents, meaning they help hair retain water. This is a good thing! Dry, brittle hair will be slightly more prone to damage, as it is more likely to break and fray. In regards to the spaghetti analogy: It is easy to snap a piece of uncooked pasta, but the cooked product is fluid and can be dropped on the floor without breaking. Regarding shutting down the cuticle: Conditioners do not open the cuticle after you've rinsed it out. Warm temperatures and high pH (as discussed above) do that. An acidic rinse can close the cuticle, but it's only a temporary effect. Hair likes to return to its natural pH and it's hard to counteract that. Damage also frays the cuticle, and conditioners can actually help a little bit to ward off damage that can leave hair looking frizzy. Conditioners will not harm your hair. However, they can, as AK pointed out, build up over time, reducing your hair's shine and general healthy look. That's why it's important to use a gentle shampoo that contains no conditioning agents (such as silicone and those I mentioned earlier) every so often. The baking soda can remove buildup, but I urge caution when using this home remedy, as the abrasive quality of soda can rough up the cuticle and harm hair. If this is all new to you I strongly suggest reading "Don't Go Shopping for Haircare Products without Me," by Paula Begoun and Ruth Winter's Cosmetic Dictionary. Invaluable tools for learning about the chemistry of hair and what certain ingredients will do! The first several chapters of Begoun's book provide a thorough discussion of this topic. I hope this helps you guys! :-) ------------- Look for beauty, and you will find no intelligence. Look for intelligence and you will find both.Proud member of the Cult of All Soft |
Posted By: turquoise_girl
Date Posted: February 25 2003 at 3:38pm
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for me: i haven't seen evidence that over conditioning directly damages my hair... However, when i overcondition, my hair is harder to detangle(so it ends up getting snagged in my comb easier which leads to broken hairs) and that later in the day my hair re-tangles much faster. this seems to be because my hair gets sticky from too much conditioner or conditioner that isn't rinsed out well enough. thats all!:) |
Posted By: Sophie
Date Posted: February 25 2003 at 9:16pm
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I disagree with Lyris when she suggests all conditioners are basically the same...I personally have brought hair back from the brink of breaking off, with the correct Re-conditioners. Testing for tensile strength can help you to know if more moisture(elasticity) or the correct protein(strength) is the answer to your hairs needs. Another good way to tell: Coarser and curly hair/more moisture is usually called for. Straighter and/or finer hair, less moisture...more protein (not milk or wheat). Wet hair is weak hair....over moisturized hair is weaker hair...I said nothing about conditioners opening the cuticle, but they are supposed to close the cuticle, many do not. Like Lyris said, the cuticle is open on hair, for many reasons...Normal wear an tear, Chemical treatments, heat, sun, chlorine, or just plain minerals in your water... Quaternized conditioners do bind moisture into the hair, and if the hair is truly dry or brittle, it is a good thing. If on the other hand hair is not dry, but maybe it appears to be dry....because the hair is swollen and the cuticle is not being closed down or artificially filled or strengthened with the correct protein...or even styling product. Putting more moisturizing product on this swollen hair is not going to make the hair stronger. I don't think leaving conditioner on your hair over night is going to make your hair stronger. Heres to all the info we can get. This is just my personal experience  Post on all. ------------- Sophie http://salonwest.proboards34.com - http://salonwest.proboards34.com |
Posted By: Unregistered Guest
Date Posted: February 26 2003 at 10:22am
| I'm not really worried about making my hair stronger (it's somewhat coarse and curly - and very thick) but I am worried about damaging it. Thanks for the input about the baking soda - I read about it on pioneerthinking.com and thought it might be more gentle than shampoo - but still remove any excessive buildup - I probably won't do it again. What do you guys think about the conditioner-only washing and the routine I've kind of outlined? Do you know of a better one? I've always had short hair and for the first time in my life, my long hair is causing me to actually consider the condition it's in. So thanks for the help. |
Posted By: Lyris
Date Posted: February 26 2003 at 10:46am
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The conditioner-only method, introduced by Lorraine Massey, author of "Curly Girl," gets a lot of play on these boards. Just recently there were several discussions about it. I tried searching the forums but I couldn't find them though. I wish I had more info for you but I like my shampoo too much to try the CO method just yet! :-) Perhaps someone else will be able to advise. ------------- Look for beauty, and you will find no intelligence. Look for intelligence and you will find both.Proud member of the Cult of All Soft |
Posted By: Unregistered Guest
Date Posted: February 26 2003 at 3:36pm
| PLEASE tell me how to test for tensile strength. My hair is a disaster. Can you tell me what I may be doing wrong based on what I am using? I shampoo every other day and use mainly shampoos for color treated hair--Loreal Serie Expert, Redken, Tigi. For conditioning, I use Loreal Serie, Kerastase, Loreal Mega Moisture, Feria, KPak (maybe once a month). I use the Redken CAT treatment once a week. I deep condition sporadically with Frederick Fekkai Protein RX and Phyto. I use various styling products, and Redken anti-snap. My hair is thin, fine, highlighted, and straight. The breakage and split ends are out of control! I try to use good products and baby my hair (except for the fact that I have to blowdry it). I read about the great results people have with some of the products I use and I expect that they will help my hair (at least a little), but my hair seems to be getting worse and worse! :( I also get my hair trimmed every 6-8 weeks. Is there ANY advice you can give me to help my poor hair? Thanks! |
Posted By: IRIS
Date Posted: February 26 2003 at 6:15pm
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Maybe you baby your hair too much. Try washing your hair every 3 days and try not to use too much conditioner. I know it might be hard, but try to stop using gel, mousse or hairspray. Also you said that you have highlights. Are you only touching up your roots? Because if you keep putting chemicals/hairdye on hair that has already been chemically treated it will only keep getting worse. Oh, and stop blowdrying your hair! I know from experience that blowdrying can really make hair frizzy. Try letting your hair airdry or only blow dry your hair when going out. I hope this helps! ! ! ------------- |
Posted By: Sophie
Date Posted: February 27 2003 at 7:45pm
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Here is some info, on testing the general condition of your hair.:) Determine the condition of your hair! Select a strand of hair - without stretching it - from the side of your head above the ears (make sure it represents the general condition of your hair). Hold it between your thumb and forefinger. With your thumbnail and index finger of the other hand, run the distance of hair rapidly as you would curl a ribbon with scissors. This will create a series of small curls. Then gently hold the hair straight for 10 seconds and release. If the hair completely, or almost completely returns to the curl pattern, it is in good condition. If it returns only 50% or less, the hair is structurally weak and will require reconditioning. Knotted Hair: Hair breaks more easily at points where it is knotted or twisted. Knots and twists are caused by excessive brushing, playing with hair, heat styling or wind exposure. ------------- Sophie http://salonwest.proboards34.com - http://salonwest.proboards34.com |
Posted By: Unregistered Guest
Date Posted: March 03 2003 at 4:33pm
| not surprised, the curl came back at about 50%. how do i recondition? i just deep conditioned with frederick fekkai protein rx for the 1st time, and it was the best thing i ever used. |
Posted By: Sophie
Date Posted: March 03 2003 at 5:33pm
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I haven't had the chance to try the FF products....Cool, I would like to get my hands on it. I love Fredric Fekkai   ------------- Sophie http://salonwest.proboards34.com - http://salonwest.proboards34.com |
Posted By: LiliBeach
Date Posted: March 03 2003 at 8:34pm
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I agree with Sopie. But Lyris's suggestion on the book "Don't go hair care shopping without me" seems to be a plug-in for Sally Beauty Supply when I read it. In which IMO sells junk. Just my opinion  ------------- I am a professional Hairstylist/Haircolorist with 19 years experience. I have traveled all over the country for my advanced education. I am also a salon owner.:)........and I LOVE Redken!!! |
Posted By: Lyris
Date Posted: March 04 2003 at 7:51am
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Hi gals, Even if you don't agree with Begoun's product reviews (which I can certainly understand--I often disagree as well given the subjective nature of critiques) the first chapters on hair chemistry are right on. Her sources are well-documented and are in line with everything I've read from reputable experts. As a former reporter, I can tell you that she has at least done her homework in a very unforgiving field. If for no other reason, her book is valuable for learning hair basics. The most astounding thing I learned was that you absolutely cannot repair hair once it's been damaged by heat, chemicals, sun, abuse, etc. No amount of "reconstructuring" conditioner can change the cuticle damage--although a good conditioner can mask the damage by coating the hair shaft and smoothing out rough spots. This makes sense, in the end, because hair is dead, dead, dead and without cellular regeneration you cannot "fix" the damage. A revelation! Anyway, have a lovely day ladies! ------------- Look for beauty, and you will find no intelligence. Look for intelligence and you will find both.Proud member of the Cult of All Soft |
Posted By: Sophie
Date Posted: March 04 2003 at 4:25pm
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Your right Lyris. Re-conditioners are artificial fixes....But some sure are great. ------------- Sophie http://salonwest.proboards34.com - http://salonwest.proboards34.com |
Posted By: Unregistered Guest
Date Posted: March 04 2003 at 6:45pm
| can you rec some good reconditioners? |
Posted By: Sophie
Date Posted: March 04 2003 at 7:22pm
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Discribe your hair; Straight? Fine? Curley? Wavey? Thick? thin? course? Shiny? Flat? fuzzy? Length? Chemical Processes? color, texturizer, straightner perm??? What is the water like at your house? Hard(minerals)? Soft? What products do you use now? Give us the scoop.------------- Sophie http://salonwest.proboards34.com - http://salonwest.proboards34.com |
Posted By: Courtney_Josephine_Rose
Date Posted: March 05 2003 at 3:27am
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I was also wondering about some really good conditioners to use. What products do you think are the best? and do you know of any intensive conditioners as well? I am getting my hair colored this week and I need to know of some really good conditioners to use afterwards. Thanks and Cheers*** ------------- Rose |
Posted By: Elissa
Date Posted: March 05 2003 at 9:03am
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I love Nexus Humectress, especially after a color. -------------  [/url]
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Posted By: Unregistered Guest
Date Posted: March 05 2003 at 6:54pm
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Straight thin Flat Length-couple inches past shoulders Chemical Processes - highlighted What is the water like at your house? i think it's hard, i hate it. What products do you use now? shampoos for colored hair (tigi, loreal serie, dove, redken) conditioners: loreal mega moisture, kerastase, loreal serie, john frieda sheer blonde deep conditioners/treatments: frederick fekkai protein rx, redken cat treatment thanks for your help! |
Posted By: Sophie
Date Posted: March 05 2003 at 7:41pm
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Hi myhair..... Is it iron or lime or what...in your hard water? It sounds like your water could be playing a part ...Its hell on highlighted hair. What do you dislike about your hair...All we know is that it sux. If its fine and flat, I would cut back on the mega moisture...and stick with the protein products...Massage that scalp til its pink. Keep that surface circulation flowing. Do you have a toner or sealer on your highlight? If you decide to clarify, because of your hard water we don't want to be disturbing your tone. ------------- Sophie http://salonwest.proboards34.com - http://salonwest.proboards34.com |
Posted By: Sophie
Date Posted: March 05 2003 at 7:42pm
 Sorry guys..------------- Sophie http://salonwest.proboards34.com - http://salonwest.proboards34.com |
Posted By: Sophie
Date Posted: March 05 2003 at 7:45pm
Sorry... I over posted...eeeek.------------- Sophie http://salonwest.proboards34.com - http://salonwest.proboards34.com |
Posted By: Unregistered Guest
Date Posted: March 06 2003 at 4:52pm
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I don't know what is in my water....do most people test it or something? All I know is every since I moved in I have hated the way it makes my hair feel. It's definitely not soft water! What do you dislike about your hair? It is thin and flat with NO body. But the worst thing is the breakage. I cannot stop the breakage! And I had breakage even when there was not a drop of color on my hair. It is not so bad that the general person looking at me would see fried split hair...but if I take my hair and look at it, it is a sea of splits and breakage. If its fine and flat, I would cut back on the mega moisture...and stick with the protein products...Massage that scalp til its pink. Keep that surface circulation flowing. >>> what does massaging do? I don't ever do that. I won't know if it's pink, so how long should I massage? Can you rec good protein products besides redken? but speaking of redken, is extreme good? I haven't tried that one. I have KPAk and am not thrilled with it. is it true that i could overdo the protein? how many times a week should I use protein. I do the cat treatment once a week... Do you have a toner or sealer on your highlight? I don't think so. After I get the highlights, nothing else goes on my hair. I clarify about once every 2 weeks. Do you have a good clarifying rec? Right now I use Origins. Thanks so much for your help!
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Posted By: demodoll
Date Posted: March 08 2003 at 9:20pm
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I have fine, thin, flat, highlighted hair and I use NO conditioner. I wear it fairly short (right now but want it a bit longer) and get it trimmed every six to eight weeks. It looks best when it is all one length and about an inch above my shoulders. I have hard water where I live in Florida and it has a lot of iron in it so I have to highlight every time I get a haircut to keep it from getting red and brassy. I use a clarifying shampoo every day which I think keeps it from going quite so flat. Moisturizing shampoos are a no-no for this type of hair. It just makes it flatter. As long as I am consistent with the trims and keep it above shoulder length, I don't really have a problem with breakage and I have been highlighting since 1979 without a break. I also blow it dry on high heat every day and I used to curl the ends under with a curling iron when it was longer and even that didn't cause breakage. The only thing that ever gave me a problem besides perms (disaster) was when someone overlapped bleach with my highlights and some hair broke off then. Be very careful with the person who does your color. They have to be careful when doing touch ups. This type of hair is more fragile then most but it actually looks really pretty when the highlights are done correctly. I know you probably hate to hear this, but if you get a blunt cut above the shoulders your hair will probably look much better and much healthier and fuller. Believe me, I have been dealing with this hair for over 40 years and there isn't much I haven't tried. This is the best hairstyle for this type of hair. You can change it by adding bangs and stuff but a longish bob is the way to go, the blunter the better. My 16 year old daughter also has this type of hair and she has very heavy highlights. She keeps her hair blunt at her shoulders with light layering around her face and looks fabulous (oh to be 16 again). And she doesn't have to do very much to it to make it look good. ------------- "It is better to look marvelous than to feel marvelous" Billy Crystal |
Posted By: Sophie
Date Posted: March 10 2003 at 12:08pm
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Sorry it's taken so long to get back. I still use Cat Protein most for breakage...you can't over use it...some proteins cause brittleness with over use, usually Keratin. The Extreme pac is a balance of both moist. and protein. You don't have to see pink scalp to know if you are really massaging and stimulating...It's just plain good to massage your scalp. Better yet get a massage. There are thousands of nerve endings all over your scalp, and face, I might add, massaging them is not going to hurt and it's free. Use the Pads of your fingers and really move that scalp around. A healthy scalp moves...it's not glued to your scull. Demodoll has some really great advise too. I totally agree about the moisture, especially on highlighted hair. If you had Iron in your water you would know it...i.e.; rust stains on your fixtures and your hair would most likely get brassy or gummy. Lime on the other hand leaves a dusty dull coating on almost everything it touches...I like BTB White Grapefruit, Iso Purifying or Alterna's Purifying... You can try lemon juice if your sure that your not clarifying toner out of your HLT> I love using Redken ShadesEQ Clear as a glossing treatment after my HLT's...It helps with lasting shine and IMO leaves the hair stronger. Last but not least be healthy, drink your water, get your sleep...eat healthy, watch your stress and OK exercise(as much as it pains me to add that) nothing will help better then these things. I love Yoga But, alas, I'm still not doing it everyday------------- Sophie http://salonwest.proboards34.com - http://salonwest.proboards34.com |