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support oue military men and women!

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Category: Hair Talk
Forum Name: Hair Politics
Forum Description: The politics of Hair is a slippery slope...
URL: https://talk.hairboutique.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=8769
Printed Date: March 28 2024 at 11:59am


Topic: support oue military men and women!
Posted By: Unregistered Guest
Subject: support oue military men and women!
Date Posted: February 03 2003 at 1:02pm
People:

It looks like the ol'U.S.A. is goin to war with crazy Saddam over in Iraq.

Even if you don't dig George W. and his country club brats(I don't) remember the military personal ain't the president and his buddies.

Remember to support our men and women in the armed forces!



Replies:
Posted By: uzma
Date Posted: February 03 2003 at 1:57pm
I support the righteous people whichever "side" they are on.

I support the innocent who will be slaughtered and those who will lose their loved ones.

I support those who will end their days in hunger and bitterness in their own homelands and on foreign soil.

My heart goes out to those who are not orphans now but will be at the hands of those who are "doing their duty" just as I stretch my love to those who are orphaned through acts of terror.

May God have mercy on us all in the long dark days ahead.

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Uzi



Posted By: Unregistered Guest
Date Posted: February 03 2003 at 7:06pm
I had an uncle die in Vietnam fighting commnuists,and a grandad who fought the Nazis in World War II. My point was, even if you don't think it's the right war at the right time, don't blame it on the veteran, like they did after Vietnam. The military men and women are common people and brave people and they suffer so others don't have to be ruled by totalitarian creeps like Nazis, Communists, and Religious fanatics that don't allow democracy and human rights.

Never taker freedom for granted, too many people have died and suffered for it.

You really truly want the end of war? Get rid of dictatorships!


Posted By: Christina
Date Posted: February 03 2003 at 8:03pm
You are right Metal Man. It is about brutal dictatorships.

Have you ever heard of a democracy invading another democracy? Has the U.S. or Britian in the past 100 years ever fought a war with democracies like Canada, Australia, or for that matter Jamaica, Ghana, or modern day(since World War II) democratic Germany, Japan, or mostly muslim Turkey? Of course not!

Sure Iraq has oil and the whole world runs on oil and other valueable resources. But it's not just about oil as the airhead protestors say.

Democracies also have oil.
Mexico has oil. North sea oil owned by Britian and Norway. Venezuela has oil and more moderate dictatorships in the Middle East have oil. Do we war with them? Of course not.
WE TRADE WITH THEM, TO BOTH OF OUR MUTUAL BENEFIT!

Iraq and the terrorists are different. They are like the World War II Nazis and Fascists, they don't believe in democracy. Their people don't have the rights that people in democracies have. And they will kill masses of innocent people if we don't stop them.

My husband is a military vet, and a great guy. America and Britian, and our veterans, aren't the problem. We have saved the world from being run by totalitarian thugs. All the thugs you mentioned Metal man.
Time and again we fought the brutal thug dictators.The whole world would be run by brutal dictatorships if it wasn't for us. The totalitarians would have won.


There would be no human rights or womens rights or minorirty rights or right to vote anywhere, if not for the U.S., Britian and our allies.

I'm in my early 50s. I've seen the foolish, naive protestors and the America and British haters for years. They are usually spoiled little brats from the upper classes. They have a right to protest and we have a right to ignore them and support our brave military in their war against totalitarianism.



Posted By: Lady Maria
Date Posted: February 04 2003 at 11:15am
Let's hope there isn't a war in Iraq.
I only wish Saddam Hussein would fully co-operate with the U.N. inspectors.
I read an article by Condelezza Rice on how the Ukraine and South Africa got rid of their weapons of mass destruction and co-operated with the U.N. inspectors and how Iraq is not doing what those countries did.

War may be inevitable, and it's really such a shame. Let's just hope if the war does happen that the war is short with a minimum of death on both sides.
Let's then hope that a decent democratic government is installed in Iraq.

I pray not only for our soliders but for the innocent civilians of Iraq. They deserve someone better as their leader than Saddam.


I still am hoping the war doesn't happen that another solution is found.

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Lady Maria


Posted By: Ingrid16
Date Posted: February 05 2003 at 8:46am
Please, please God let there be no war...
My brother is over there right now in Kuwait (he's in air defense, Army), and I'm really scared that he'll have to go into action. He's scared too, but he puts on a brave front and says that he's ready to stand by whatever postion that the US decides on.
However, I think it's important to stand by the decisions of our government, even if we don't fully agree...or at the least we should disagree constructively. None of this crap about 'baby-killers' and America being an 'evil empire'...we are not doing our best as a nation, but sometimes war is the only choice...I don't know if that applies here, but I'd be willing to risk it if the alternative is terrorism and nuclear threat.
My dad was in Vietnam and we treated like dirt for risking his life over there, and it seems to me that the lack of support at home was one of the things that ruined our military strength then. Please, everyone, don't take it out on the troops. Right now they need us. If we go to war, then turning on our own people will not help anyone. If we go to war, then let's win! If people are so down on the US and think that its such an evil place that commits such evil actions, the GO SOMEWHERE ELSE! This isn't a totalitarian state, this isn't the USSR, if you don't like it here you can always leave.
Sorry, this whole thing upsets me. Believe me, I'd rather see the whole thing called off and have my brother back in the US and safe.

Inga

PS; Oh, yeah, isn't this supposed to be a HAIR talk forum? Not that I should talk.


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If I had wings then I could take you in
I'd stay on the ground and show you some things
The grass is strewn with blades of gold
all sights and sounds I have been told
all hopes, desires, seem to sing


Posted By: Unregistered Guest
Date Posted: February 05 2003 at 12:52pm
Ingrid------
Little sis I agree with everything you said, also what Cristina said. You ladies are right on. We need to do it right and win the war if we have to do it. And respect our military people. That's for sure!

Your brother is a true brother to all Americans and all who love freedom and human rights Ingrid. Let's hope for the best .


Posted By: Ingrid16
Date Posted: February 08 2003 at 2:00am
Thanx Metal Man (my brother thanks you too :))

I apologize for my outburst in my previous post- I sound kinda like a warmongerer. Truth be told, violence of any kind scares me, and as much as I support the US and our troops, I'm also praying for the people of Iraq and other nations that are involved in one conflict or another...so much death and sadness for the sake of politics and money. I've not naive enough to think that 'everyone can just get along'...thousands of years of human history and that's NEVER happened. But its almost never worth the price paid in destroyed lives, be it soldiers or innocents.
God, war is a horrible thing.......

-------------
If I had wings then I could take you in
I'd stay on the ground and show you some things
The grass is strewn with blades of gold
all sights and sounds I have been told
all hopes, desires, seem to sing


Posted By: LiliBeach
Date Posted: March 15 2003 at 6:44pm
OK, my turn to vent,

We do need to stop a madman (Saddam) before he goes too far with his weapons. If we and the world allows him to continue building his weapons, 911 will look like a walk in the park.

Listening to 20/20 on Friday March 14 about the POW"S from the gulf war should be proof enough for any anti-war protesters on how evil this man is.
(Go to abcnews.com for the program)

I DO NOT want to go to war, but sometimes we have to before we lose any more lives in this country to terrorism.

I cheered and honked my horn the other day to a passing convoy of Marines from my hometown heading to the dessert. I beleive they all need our cheers, because they are going there for us.

God Bless Them ALL!!!!!!!!!

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I am a professional Hairstylist/Haircolorist with 19 years experience. I have traveled all over the country for my advanced education. I am also a salon owner.:)........and I LOVE Redken!!!


Posted By: Lady Maria
Date Posted: March 15 2003 at 7:06pm
I don't want war either but I agree, we need to support our troops!

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Lady Maria


Posted By: Sophie
Date Posted: March 19 2003 at 8:51pm
God Bless.....It has begun, they just shot cruse missles into Bagdad......................OMG

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Sophie
http://salonwest.proboards34.com - http://salonwest.proboards34.com


Posted By: Kintaro
Date Posted: March 20 2003 at 8:32am
And the soldiers have "supercool" buzzcuts.


To bring it back to the Hair forum aspect......

Some army rules like the US, I don't know their exact rule on hair, but I know Canada has a cop-out rule for long hair, but only for native peoples (which I don't have, the rule is 3 generations, i have no link).

Not that it's the only reason I wouldn't go in the armed forces (lack of a practice with multiple firearms, and other forms of combat, the fact that the canadian military is an oxymoron in itself (like Japan's SDF) and that we have our boats and subs sink without a single shot fired.) , but it sure is one of them :P

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I hate all of the following and lots more : Fundamentalists, racists, sexists, fascists, ageists (people saying seniors = senile , kids = stupid , 18 = immature or a combo of them), and bigots for causes yet to receive their own designation.


Posted By: uzma
Date Posted: March 20 2003 at 1:28pm
OK - my turn to vent (and I accept that this mail will probably be deleted, but if only one person reads it, that will be worth it).

I cannot support the position of the military in this conflict anymore.

Here in the UK, these men and women - many of them boys and girls just out of their teens - have allowed themselves to be used as instruments of murder.
They have explictly expressed their commitment to actively participate the state-sanctioned massacre of people who aren't doing anything wrong. Massacre of one body of innocents by another body of innocents.
The individuals that make up the military do not represent the force of goodness and righteousness. They represent the suspension of individual conscience. They represent the death of democracy, free will and honour - and the rise of propoganda, the new world order, hypocrisy and aggression. Every one of them is accountable for their actions.
There are moves afoot to bring the main protagonists (Bush & Blair & the Spanish leader) to answer for their actions at an international war crimes tribunal. What will our boys and girls do then? Will they say, like the nazi luftwaffe when they stood on trial for war crimes, that they were just doing their jobs?
Not good enough.

I hope there are minimal deaths on both sides. I do not believe that if the mighty US, who sends people into space, could not assasinate one dictator (Saddam) and one terrorist (Osama). I don't know the hidden agenda but there does appear to be a schedule of targets that Bush read out on September 12th 2001.
I wonder how our "leaders" will justify ripping the world apart. Whose next, I forget...Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia?
How will you defend this position? Will you still support the military boys and girls when they have the innocent blood of thousands on their hands?

Those hands will be OUR hands.

May God have mercy on us all.


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Uzi



Posted By: Lady Maria
Date Posted: March 20 2003 at 3:18pm
The military personel of the U.S. and the U.K are hardly innocents. They are professionally trained soliders, a volunteer army. Virtually all of them are in their 20s and 30s. They are grown men and women and they know exactly what they are doing and why they are fighting.

The U.S. and Britian defeated the Nazis. Then we defeated the brutal Communist dictatorships. As a result Europe(East and West Europe) and Latin America,(where my ancestors came from), have freedom and democracy today. For the first time ever, all of the people on those continents can vote and there is some semblence of human rights and womens rights.

We will also defeat the brutal dictatorship of Saddam Hussein. He killed 200,000 Kurds and used poison gas on them and attempted to genocide them. Saddam and his friends stole billions of dollars from the Iraqi people which they now have in Swiss bank accounts. They stole this money from the "oil for humanitarian aid program". The rest of the money went into the Iraqi military, therefore causing even more harm to the Iraqi people.

There has always been war. As an adult I know this.
Only a childish fool is a complete pacifist. No one likes war but the Iraqi , and for that matter Iranian people,(who have protested by the millions against their brutal dictatorship, time and again) who live under brutal dictatorships crave and want democracy and we will bring it to them.
And yes eventually more Muslim countries will have democracy and human and womens rights. And the ignorant protestors in western countries(mostly from spoiled wealthy families) can protest all they want, but they can't stop the spread of democracy, a modern economy and human rights. In the short run, of course war is tragic, but just like the wars againgst Nazism and Communism, in the long run democracy will win, and the Arab people will be much, much, better off in the long run under democracy.
And if it were just about oil, why aren't we, as others on this thread have pointed out, invading other oil producing countries?

It is about stopping terrorists and dictators who have hijacked the Muslim world. Freedom and democracy will come to the Muslim world eventually.

Let us hope and pray that the war is short and that very few people die on either side.

Long live democracy and freedom! May our troops remain safe!

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Lady Maria


Posted By: Lady Maria
Date Posted: March 20 2003 at 3:31pm
And no Usma, democracies that fight dictatorships are not war criminals, and we will win this war against Saddam.
If there are any war trials it will be against the Iraqi leadership for the attempted genocide of the Kurds.

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Lady Maria


Posted By: Kintaro
Date Posted: March 20 2003 at 6:38pm
Terrorism is terrorism even when we do the shooting, regardless of cause or plan.

It's the burden they must carry, no divinity is going to push them harder because of it.

I hope for minimal casualties too, Saddam, his lieuts, possibly a few others, but please, bomb that building that looks like a ****** they were showing on CNN.


Back to Hair politics : Regardless if your hair preference is short or long, Saddam is fugly. Pure and simple.

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I hate all of the following and lots more : Fundamentalists, racists, sexists, fascists, ageists (people saying seniors = senile , kids = stupid , 18 = immature or a combo of them), and bigots for causes yet to receive their own designation.


Posted By: uzma
Date Posted: March 20 2003 at 6:41pm
I call the military personnel innocents because by virtue of being pawns of the government they are not engaging their individual brains. This is termed “neotony” – a condition of voluntary, child-like brainwashing and suspension of the personal conscience i.e. the personal discrimination between right and wrong. I have heard the words of war veterns from WW2. There were many who came out wearing their medals with pride last month during the Anti-War march. And they were carrying banners saying “Not in Our Name”. These men were interviewed on TV and expressed their total opposition to what they called an unjustified and immoral war.
And do the US/K soldiers truly know what they are doing and why they are fighting – truly know the agenda of our so-called leaders? We have heard the US say that they will “bring democracy to Iraq”. If that is anything like the democracy the US brought to Afganistan, it will be replacing a dictator with a puppet whose strings are pulled by the US. You cannot import the Western development and political model into the Muslim world. It doesn’t fit. The only thing the US will achieve – and this is to their own advantage – is neo-colonialism. Wake up.

As for WW2 – yes the Allied Forces (UK & US plus others) defeated the nazis. But lets not confuse the leaders of the past with the leaders of the present. And lets not confuse the Western societies of the 1930s & 40s who did not live in gangland, drug culture, etc – but had a sense of morality, honour and integrity. Sadly lacking in these materialistic and self-serving times.
With due respect, if your origins are Latin, than you know about the impact of US foreign policy in Nicaragua & Cuba. Oh and what about the freedom and democracy in Brazil and Argentina. What about the abject poverty and soaring wealth. What about the death squads. What about the disappeared. Social problems perpetuated and supported by so-called democracy.
It is naïve to think that human rights abuses do not occur under democracies. They are covered up or are taken abroad. I guess this may seem like a totally crazy statement to you, but justice, peace and women’s rights existed before the version of “democracy” you have placed on a pedestal. Wake up.

What has hurt the Iraqui people has been the collusion of the US/K in supporting Saddam for decades. He is playing games. He was taught well be his US/K masters. Now he is an easy target. His people have been brutalised by his western supported regime. We sold him the chemical & biological weapons, because he was keeping the middle-east in a state of chaos via the Iran-Iraq war. That was really good for our countries. It distracted everone from the Palestinian death-count and nicely started the demonization of Islam process for us.
I don’t think the US/K want Iraqi oil. They want ALL the oil. They want it under their control and they want the people of the regions possessing oil to become like the neotonized military. Wake up.

The Iraqi people want peace. They want to be able to live in security. They do not want to be invaded by us. SH spends aid money on palaces while his people starve. We let him do this because it suited us. We let the Palestinian situation continue because this too is in our interests.
What will we bring the Iraqis? Our forces will “open” Iraq and then go for the next country on their list. What we are offering these people is trade. We trade your dictator for our subtle, hypocritical dictatorship. We hope you are too stuffed with food, clothes, and the other goodies we will tempt you with, to notice. Wake up.

The US/K have declared themselves – because of their economic and military power – as having the right to impose their agenda on the world. Anti-War protestors in the UK and all over the world are far from ignorant. The ignorant ones are those who believe the lies without looking deeper – without thinking.
The argument you used, the “spread of democracy” was used two centuries ago by the colonialist. They said they were spreading civilization. And the inquisition – they were spreading Christianity. And the slave-traders? – they didn’t bother with a justification, they just knew that “Might was Right”. Wake up.

Democracies are here to represent (a) the will of the electorate (b) the best interests of the state.
(a) is being ignored. Democracy is a casualty of this war, along with truth.
(b) is being implemented in the most malicious manner.

Finally, I am not a pacifict. I will fight for justice and peace. I have lived through two wars and know how that feels. I am now in a democract country that is acting like the agressive terrorists it hates.
The US/K are rebelling against the United Nations – which was set up after WW2 to prevent another world war. They have undermined it’s authority as much as Saddam has.

Lets not pretend that we are the "good guys" - we are not fooling anyone in the world - not the governments and not the populations, except those who are too scared or dependant on trade/aid to oppose us (and of course, some of our own sleeping populations).

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Uzi



Posted By: Lady Maria
Date Posted: March 20 2003 at 10:27pm
Saying that Arabs or Muslims can't adjust to democracy is very, very racist. Turkey is a Muslim country that has been a democracy for years. Democracy isn't just a "western" value.
Hindu India is a democracy. Buddhist Japan is a democracy.
The fact is Arabs can, and will ,adjust to democracy. Arab-Americans are very, emphatically behind the war effort to rid the Mideast of dictatorships. So are most WWII and Vietnam war veterans regardless of what a few leftist radicals may say. And you don't see massive demonstartions in the new democracies of Eastern Europe. They are grateful that America and Britian helped free them from Communism. So are their leaders who are backing Bysh and Blair. They are not spoiled like the kids from the upper classes in the western world.

Democracy in the long run will win out over dictatorships of any sort, it is human nature, not just "western", to want freedom.

The liberal-radicals in the U.S. when I was a kid used to say that Latin America could never be democratic, that the U.S. shouldn't import "our values" to Latin America. As a Latina woman I always considered the liberals to be extremely racist and condescending to Latinos just as you are very condescending to your fellow Muslims Uzma. You sell them short. You would deny them the freedom you enjoy in Britian.

Today every country in Latin America has free democratic elections and Amnesty International has stated that in countries as diverse as Brazil, Argentina, Chile, and Mexico, human rights have increased compared to life under the dictators. Same with Eastern European countries like Poland, the Czech Republic and Romania.

I hate to tell you this Uzma but you are very wrong. I don't need to wake up, you do. Democracy and human rights has the upper hand in wartime and peacetime. We will win this war against Saddam.

Mark my words on this one. If you and I live another 30 years, which I hope we do, you will see more, not less, of a push for democracy and a western standard of living in the Muslim world. Radical Islamic fundamentalism won't win, the moderate Muslims and democracy will, because the craving for freedom isn't just "western" it is human nature.

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Lady Maria


Posted By: Lady Maria
Date Posted: March 20 2003 at 10:42pm
And yes, countries are dependent on us economically, as we are them. It is interdependence.
The life expectancy in Latin America in 1950 was 40 years. Today it is 65 years on average. The "terrible" Americans and our"colonialism", our economic system and our science and medical science, has increased life expectancy by 25 years there.
If you don't believe me check the stats.

Golbalization and the spread of modern economics and democracy isn't just benefiting the West. Every rational person wants it. Everyone wants what the U.S. and Britian have, that's why they want to move to our countries or have what we have in their countries.
I don't feel sorry for you Uzma even if you have lived through a war. My respect goes to those who support our military and modernization and women's rights., and they are not "brainwashed".

I have a male cousin who is in the military and his political and human rights positions are much better thought out than yours are. He is very intelligent and articulate, hardly anyone's "puppet" or dupe. He is brave and has good values as most Americans do . Contrary to the myth, most of us aren't criminals, drug addicts or prostitutes, we are good people. I hope you can visit the U.S. some day Uzma. There are many nice people here.

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Lady Maria


Posted By: Lady Maria
Date Posted: March 20 2003 at 11:45pm
Kintaro, you are a funny young guy. You are only 18, you are still a young pup!

I'm glad you are growing out your hair Kintaro. Long haired guys are sexy! What do the young ladies think of you and your longer hair? Do you have a steady lady right now?

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Lady Maria


Posted By: Isla Q.
Date Posted: March 21 2003 at 3:00am
I think we all agree that Sadam is doing no good. But the way the US and UK have gone about this isn't anything to write home about either. They have completely undermined the UN and refuse to listen to other opinions. This week I heard Tony Blair say they cannot back off now because what message would that give to Sadam. The fact is the US and UK put themselves in that situation where it was politically impossible not to go to war!
And truly believe that the US and K will in fact not beat Sadam with this war. He has a massive tunnelsystem where he can hide. Most Iraqi people have nowhere to hide, and they are the ones who will get hurt.

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Posted By: Lady Maria
Date Posted: March 21 2003 at 3:42am
They said we would never beat the Communists either. I heard that all my childhood. The bitter unhappy liberal extremists said Communism and the Soviet Union would win. Eastern Europe would never be free.

I guess they were wrong weren't they.

It isn't just about what the U.S. and Britian want. It has more to do with the natural progress of people. People everywhere want freedom and human rights and a better standard of living. No one wants to live under a terrible dictatorship.

We will see how long Saddam Hussain's regime lasts. And if any civilians die it is his fault. We wouldn't have fired a shot if he and his government would have gone into exile in Tunisia or Bahrain as was offered to him.

As far as the U.N. goes, it is like the League of Nations. It is entirely ineffective. It didn't stop the genocide in Cambodia or the Sudan or Bosnia or Rawanda . It has never stopped a genocide.
Only when the U.S. and Britian went into Kosovo did we stop the genocide of the the Kosovar Albanians.
40% of the U.N. is dictatorships. The rest are mostly incompetent, ineffective, weak cowards.
If you want something done, you call on the U.S. and British . We are the only ones that can win a war or defeat a dictator.

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Lady Maria


Posted By: uzma
Date Posted: March 21 2003 at 4:01am
Turkey is a secular democracy. The people of Turkey have democractic governments that behave like autocrats. The people are Muslim, but the govt wants to be part of the Europe and the EU. The people have been restricted in their religious practises for generations. The dervishes were outlawed and head-scarves were banned until recently. People are Muslim but the govt is not and if it were a true democracy, the elected govt. would not be abusing the basic human rights of their people to freely practise their religion.
No Arab wants an evil dictator. Arabs are historically, socially and politically, tribal people. They are used to being led by a benevolent dictator. It has been this way for generations. Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE, etc are all wealthy Arab states. They are not democracies. You don’t see their people requring liberation from autocracy. That is because they have money. They are fed.
The Afgans are tribal and we want to impose democracy on them. It has and will fail. They follow tribal leaders. Period. Pakistan is a democracy but go onto the streets of Karachi. Speak to the ordinary person, speak to the middle classes – basically you will hear the same thing. They want the Muslim political system. They are detached from democracy and it from them. It hasn’t worked – they have tried it. They don’t want it. This is what the US/K fears. A wholesale Muslim revolution like they had in Iran. Why don’t we just leave them alone to get on with it, rather than interfering.
Last week, I had dinner with (among others) a Slovakian doctor and a Lithuanian scientist. You are right. They have been through hell with communism and democracy is better because it is not so invasive in terms of their personal freedoms. But they are uncomfortable with how democracy will develop. Democracy detaches state from people. We talked about exactly that happening in Britain at the moment and what it really said about western states. They are demonstrating yet…they still fear that they will be silenced by invisible hands who now have the shelter of a west-sanctioned political system. Vladmir Putin – the Russian premier – is not seeing mass demonstrations on the streets of his nation. Except the anti-war ones which have the satisfaction of knkowing that their leader reflects the will of their people.

Muslim immigrants and refugees want the economic benefits of the west. They do not want, need or share western values.
I socialise with a wide range of Arabs, Iranians, Egyptians and Pakistanis who have settled in our countries. I know plenty who have been born in the UK. Some of them have given up. They feel they had better behave like the white majority and become "integrated", i.e indistinguishable from the "host" population. Indeed they have been "encouraged" to do this in Britain by David Blunkett - a Cabinet member (Senior Government) and others. They are "encouraged" to speak to their young children exclusively in english. A slow cultural genocide.

But something interesting is going on. They young people of Muslim origin are turning away from western values. They are recovering their Muslim identities and expressing repugnance at their parent moral ambiguity. Today we saw thousands of children and teenagers flow onto the streets of a number of major British cities in Anti-war protest.
With them were their teachers, Members of Parliament, intellectuals, etc. Not just the usual left-wing suspects, those who did not belong to any political party or had ever had a political opinion were out in force for the first time. Ordinary British people with their children. Grandparents.

My point is that what the new, west-born, un-westernised Muslim community wants is not what we think every "intelligent" person would want. That is racist and ignorant, because it assumes that they don’t have anything better.
Islam has it's own ideal political system, women's rights are intrinsic in this as is a welfare state. What the west offers is timely economic security and a secular, distant political system that prefers the individual not to think too much.

With respect, you appear to believe that democracy is synonymus with freedom. That made me laugh. Have you heard of Israel? Please wake up!!!
Also, you imply that some of my comments were racist. I wish we were face to face and you knew who and what I am. And I have been to the US, specifically, DC, Iowa, LA and Chicago. Indeed I have lots of family members in the US and in Canada. People are basically good and well-meaning. I also work in a multi-national corporation, with Americans. I have relatives (including my sister) in various UN agencies.
Yes, Americans are “nice” people. They also tend (I generalise) to have a particulary American characteristic of thinking that because they are the No.1 superpower in the world at the moment – that they are right. That we all want to be Americans. I find this incredibly arrogant and I am not alone. This, and US foreign policy, is why America is so hated around the world.

My prediction for the next few years is that US/K aggression in the Middle-east will be tolerated by the rest of the world for a while. But that arrogance I spoke of earlier will go too far at some point and there will be a backlash. I think the scale will be unprecedented and that it will make WW2 look like picnic.

Debate is good.
Thank you for being an articulate opponent.
Back to hair….?


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Uzi



Posted By: uzma
Date Posted: March 21 2003 at 4:02am
Maria.

Your faith in the US/K is commendable, dubious and highly entertaining.

As they say:- "go with whatever lie suits you".

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Uzi



Posted By: Unregistered Guest
Date Posted: March 21 2003 at 9:19am
We really don't care about your dumb ideas Uzma. How come us Christians don't have a problem with the Chinese buddha people or the Hindus? How come its allways the Muslims that fight with everybody?
When I lived in Chicago the most prejudiced people towards us blacks was the arabs. They looked at us like animals, they were worse than Ku Klux Klansmen. Maybe the problem ain't America or Tony Blair or the Buddhas or the Christians. Maybe it is your Jihad Muslim holy war garbage!!!!!
Uzma you and Saddam Hussein can KISS MY BLACK A#S!!!!! SADDAM IS DEAD MEAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Posted By: Unregistered Guest
Date Posted: March 21 2003 at 9:27am
You sound like you want a world war Uzma. You think them Hindus in India love you Muslims. They fight you there.Or them Buddhas in China . They are fighting Muslims in that western province there.
You really think anyone could win a nuculear war Uzma. You know how many nukes do you think America, Britian and China could drop on the Middle East? Is that what you want girl?
YOU TALK LIKE AN IDIOT UZMA! And if you don't want to talk English then why do you live in a English speakin country.
BELIEVE ME, YOU DON"T WANT WORLD WAR 3 with us girlie!!!!!


Posted By: uzma
Date Posted: March 21 2003 at 9:46am
Melba

Why have you allowed a civilized discussion to deteriorate into abuse?

All of us have our own viewpoints and although we may not respect those views, let us conduct ourselves with good manners?

I do not want a world war. I want peace, harmony and justice. I want a world where Christians, Jews, Hindus peacefully co-exist, with autonomy and without interference with each other.
You to your ways and we to ours.

As Kintaro said, terrorism is terrorism not matter who is pulling the trigger.
I did not wish to inflate or incense people, just to make them see both sides. I am glad that Lady Maria presented her views as strongly as I did.

It is a pity that you have to resort to slurs.
I forgive you and hope that you improve yourself so that you can have reasonable articulate discussions in future.


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Uzi



Posted By: Lady Maria
Date Posted: March 21 2003 at 10:19am
In some ways you are right Uzma. Americans are too arrogant at times, and people always resent the "top dog" so to speak, which is America whether we like it or not, right now.
It's like our national sport Uzma, which is baseball. The New York Yankees baseball team always wins the most, and they are sometimes arrogant. Some of the other teams hate them even if they respect their talent. Don't you have a famous soccer team, I think they are called Birmingham United, that win the soccer league often? I'm sure other teams sometimes resent them.
And no, you shouldn't have to give up what you love about your culture. But this talk of World War is ridiculous. America has enough nukes to blow up the Middle East one hundred times over, and I hope neither America or any other country ever uses nukes again! Heaven forbid! That is why we need to get along.
There is no denying though that even though everyone should keep whatever they want about their ethnic culture, and people should respect that, that democracy is growing. In 1950 only 25% of the world's countries were democratic. Today it is 60%, and other countries, like Iran for example, want democracy. That isn't an "American" thing, it is just something that is evolving. And there is really no turning back the clock on that. And there is really no turning back the clock on the English language. From Sweden to Mexico to China to India, English is taught as a second language, although I think it is fine for people to speak more than one language. That means they are well educated.

Of course democracies can be flawed. Democracies are run by humans, and we are flawed. And I agree that Israel should not put more settlements on the West Bank or Gaza, and that the Palestinians should have their own country. And I believe that will happen soon. Tony Blair has emphazied that on many occasions, to his credit. Even Bush is grudgingly going along with that now. We have to be evenhanded about things.

I try to understand the Jews too though Uzma. There are only 14 million Jews in the world. There are billions of Christians like myself and Muslims like you. We are very large religions. I can understand the Jews defensiveness. I think they shoud be allowed to have a country, in Israel proper; assuming of course that the Palestinians have their country too.

I have stayed up all night watching news on the war, I didn't go to work today. The war is disturbing. Let us hope and pray that it is over soon with very few casualties.

I need to get some sleep now. God bless you Uzma my Muslim sister. I love you!

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Lady Maria


Posted By: Lady Maria
Date Posted: March 21 2003 at 10:24am
P.S.
I'm glad you find me entertaining Uzma, us Americans are into entertainment, as I'm sure you know.

You are entertaining too!!!

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Lady Maria


Posted By: uzma
Date Posted: March 21 2003 at 10:38am
Lady Maria

I also stayed at home today because I have the flu and because I stayed up late last night watching the unfolding events in Iraq.

By the way, it's Manchester United football club - the best in the world...(hehehe)

I love you too, Lady Maria, my Christian sister.

Take care and God bless you.

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Uzi



Posted By: Kintaro
Date Posted: March 21 2003 at 1:05pm
Imagine a world where there are no countries, no poverty, no hunger, no war and no government.

Close your eyes. Think about it for 15 seconds.

Open them now. In the next 15 seconds, I doubt 1 % will actually do something to get close to the human dream of peace.


As for race, religion, and other biases, the only way to get rid of them is to re-vamp the whole idea or throw it out. Like religion especially. The convert and die people, on all sides of the multi-sided fence.... the "God bless this side, God bless the other."..... It's engrained in the definition of most religions, clearly christianity and islam.

And this may not sound like a news breaker, especially when it is ignored by both sides, God's not on your side or any other's, and he's not playing dice with the world for one reason, that the concept of a divinity is flawed. If you care for the here and now, you love people in the here and now. If you care about a ticket to heaven, most (not all) people wait to love in the there and then, which quite logically doesn't exist, or at least doesn't exist in any (wo)man-made concept.


America is the strongest nation in the world because they have a loving hand as soft as silk, and an iron fist as the other. Some may debate that they use the other hand too much, but liberating the world (or at least attempting to) is a two-hand job. Both hands must work together, to weed out problems, and to fill them in with solutions.

The only 2 problems with this semi-utopic description of the world is this : 1, Bush's, and practically everyone else's references to God doesn't advance the cause, real people do...... and 2, the most probable cash cow scenario (i.e. profiting from the oil fields) will most likely happen.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions, but I see the road since there is no hell, just here.

-------------
I hate all of the following and lots more : Fundamentalists, racists, sexists, fascists, ageists (people saying seniors = senile , kids = stupid , 18 = immature or a combo of them), and bigots for causes yet to receive their own designation.


Posted By: Kintaro
Date Posted: March 21 2003 at 1:12pm
P.S. Melba, you screwed up. Baseless positions lead you nowhere, and I don't care what color you are, screwing up is human, and last I heard, "people of african origin" are human.

BTW, wasn't Uzi a christian last time I checked ? I could be wrong, I do remember the god part.

This thread may close soon because in the last 5++ posts, there have been no reference to hair but in our sigs. If it does, so be it. Because off-topic progressive thought can be tolerated. When regressive thought is put in a thread, it kills it, no matter how progressive all the future posts are.

Thank you, and please register for the forums. We do want you here if you can provide more progressive thought than "kiss my black arse"

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I hate all of the following and lots more : Fundamentalists, racists, sexists, fascists, ageists (people saying seniors = senile , kids = stupid , 18 = immature or a combo of them), and bigots for causes yet to receive their own designation.


Posted By: Unregistered Guest
Date Posted: March 21 2003 at 6:09pm
Uzma, you sound like you know what you are talking about. You must drive your leftist friends crazy. A strong, self confident women who doesn't espouse the leftist ideology of victimhood. I bet you send shivers down their spines. God, I love a real intelligent woman. Keep the faith, but don't be afraid to share it. We need strong ladies like you to speak up in our great nation. BTW, I hope all is well in the hair growth efforts.


Posted By: uzma
Date Posted: March 21 2003 at 7:14pm
Hello Bill - and thanks for your kind comments.

Actually, you have partly explained the look of shock and horror on the faces around me when I get started on these topics.
The other part must have something to do with being a small, non-feminist woman.

The hair growth odyssey (thanks for asking) is going wonderfully. I love the sensation of hair sitting on my shoulders and rolling down my back. I should have done this years ago.

And although I don't do the victim thing, I need to do less blaming and take more action and personal responsibility.
Onwards and upwards !!!

Take care, Bill.

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Uzi



Posted By: Lady Maria
Date Posted: March 21 2003 at 7:35pm
Kintaro.
Uzma has said on several occasions that she is a Muslim woman.

Uzma.
So the team is called Manchester United. Now I remember, you are right. I think they wear red uniforms.

Bill.
There are many strong, independent minded women who are not into the feminist, leftist, feel sorry for yourself victim mentality. I like to think I am one of them also.
It is possible to be tolerant and progressive and still in many ways be traditional and conservative. And, I might also say, feminine.
This is something I think I share in common with Uzma and an increasingy number of women.

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Lady Maria


Posted By: Unregistered Guest
Date Posted: March 22 2003 at 2:44pm
Saddam Hussein is not a true Muslim, he is a socialist. He didn''t make the Muslim women cover in Iraq. He is not worthy of support.
Only women who are properly covered and cut can be considered Muslim. Most western Muslim women and Socialist Muslim women are not Muslims and will not have salvation. They are not of Allah, because so many of them don''t obey the clerics, don''t obey their men, are not cut and they don''t cover. They are fallen women like Christian, Jewish and Hindu women.

Al Qaeda I believe are true Muslims. The Taliban were true Muslims. The leaders of Iran , the holy clerics are good Muslims.
A good Muslim can never tolerate democracy, only Allah''s rule is sufficent. Secular democracies talk of freedom of religion but this allows people to stray into evil. Only a government that is of Allah is worth defending.

Good women of America please be modest. Ideally wear a burqa but at least cover your head with a scarf and don''t let men see your body, only a long dress is sufficent.
Only a covered and cut woman has salvation and pleases Allah. Obey your husband. Only your husband should see you uncovered and all Muslim women should marry and have children for Allah. This can make them true Muslims.
God is great! Praise Allah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Posted By: Hassam from LA
Date Posted: March 22 2003 at 2:49pm
REMEMBER MUSLIM WOMEN> ALLWAYS COVER!!!!!

THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



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Hassam


Posted By: uzma
Date Posted: March 22 2003 at 2:57pm
Please do not start this again Hassam.

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Uzi



Posted By: Unregistered Guest
Date Posted: March 22 2003 at 3:37pm
Kimtaro, you are a little 18 year old weirdo punk. I don't need any advice from you. I am older than you I am married and have children , and work, and no more about life in the tippy tip of my little finger than you will ever know ya little oddball!

And Uzma I certainly don't need your forgiveness you are NOT THE LORD JESUS! AND YOU WERE THE ONE THAT WAS UNCIVILIZED AND TALKIN BOUT HAVIN A WORLD WAR!!! NOT ME!
At least you are honest Uzma you say you are only livin in England for economic reasons you have no loyalty for England and don't consider yoself a Brit. That is the problem with Muslims. They think they are special that they are better than everyone else that they don't need to do nothin for the society they live in. Black Americans we got our own culture too just like the Irish ,the Mexicans, and the Polish , but we still have loyalty to America. We considered ourselfes Americans. Thats what make you Muslims different you are stuck up people that consider the rest of us Infadels or whatever you call the non-Muslim people that you consider non-human.You Muslims Arabs in the Sudan killed 2 million black Christians mostly innocent men ,women ,and kids. You killed innocent civilians at the WorldTrade Towers. You killed innocent Hindu civilians in India. Yet our president and the generals said today that the war in Iraq is going slower because we are tryin not to kill Muslim civilians. Why are we trying not to kill Muslim civilians? They would kill us!
The Muslims are taught that other religions are Infadels, unworthy of life if you ain't Muslim. That is why Muslims have Jihad, the holy war against non-Muslims. That is why when you say hi to a Muslim or smile at them they just give you a dirty look. They consider you an Infadel, you are no good to them.
We should just fight the Muslims like the Muslims fought in the Sudan when they killed 2 million black Christians civilians. Im sure we would lose less soliders if we just fought the war 100 percent instead of tryin to protect civilians that would kill us if they had a chance!


Posted By: uzma
Date Posted: March 22 2003 at 4:31pm
Hello Melba

I forgave you because your slurs were aimed at me and I did not wish any sin to stick to you for your mistakes.
I forgive you again because you are obviously damaged, hurt, judgemental and proud.

I am a Muslim first, a Briton second. I presume you are a Christian first and an American second?
I will not be loyal to any country just because I live there. I am only loyal to righteousness because this is God’s command.
I work and pay taxes, I don’t draw any benefits and I support the needy in Britain of whatever race and religion because they are my brothers, sisters, neighbors and fellow human beings.

I believe that every human being (and I don’t judge which person is better than any other, because my religion tells me that only God can and will decide between us) is basically good. Where people lose, ignore or distort this basic goodness you get evil.
People – who have professed being Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists – have and continue to commit acts of evil that are against God and His creation.
Inquisition
Slavery
Crusades
Nazism
Wars (too many to mention)
Terrorist acts (too many to mention)
I could go on.

Name me one main religion whose followers have not gone against their religion in committing horrific acts.
Jihad, in Arabic, means striving or effort. There are two jihads. The greater jihad, which is the individuals inner, personal struggle against evil within themselves. This type of jihad is constant and the most important.
The lesser jihad, is the fight against those who aggress against you first, and if you are on the side of righteousness.
The Iran-Iraq war was two muslim countries going to "jihad" against each other. More that 2 million people were killed by their own fellow muslims!!!
They were obviously stupid and led by the evil motives of their political masters as are many countries are today.

We are living in dangerous times, Melba.
If good people are going to be the future of this world than we have to approach each other in the spirit of truthfulness, forgiveness and understanding.
Good people, regardless of their religion, have to join hands and defeat our common enemies.
God will decide, long after this life is over, as to which of us is worthy of His approval.

May He bless you, heal you and protect you, Melba.


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Uzi



Posted By: uzma
Date Posted: March 22 2003 at 5:08pm
PS: With reference to your first post, Melba, I speak languages other than English. And I do like the English language.

Parlez vous Francais?
Parlo Italiano?
Urdu may baat karo?
Qul Arabi?

But hey, the internet language is English and I'm not a language fascist.

PPS: Lay off Kintaro.
That fine young man is entitled to his freely express his opinion. Should we not encourage the next generation in developing their characters and thoughts? Why put him down?
He was only saying that you did not have to lower yourself by shameful speech in order to get your message across.
That's a good and positive opinion.
That is how I would want my son to conduct himself.
Wisdom out of the mouths of babes...........

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Uzi



Posted By: AC
Date Posted: March 23 2003 at 7:19pm
If our American government had any brains this entire thread would be unnecessary.

Most of American trade today is with Canada, Mexico, South America, and East Asia. We don't do that much trade with Europe, even less with South Asia, Africa or the Mid-East. We get a minority of our oil from the Mid-East unlike western Europe who get the majority of their oil from there.
We have defended west Europe for nearly one-hundred years now. It was mostly American troops and money that supplied NATO throughout the Cold War. Ditto today, including in Bosnia and Kosovo. With the exception of the British, the rest of west Europe has spent little on their militaries and wouldn't be unable to defend themselves. The Americans quite frankly are fools. We are defending them and they don't even like us or our policies, they would even allow an arab dictatorship to have any sort of weapon of Mass Destruction and they wouldn't stop them evenif they used them on Europe. They are that weak, this is incredibly true.

Ever since Vietnam in the late 60s most Europeans have hated us. We defend people with American lives and taxdollars who hate us. Does that make sense??
We have much better relations with our neighbors in the western hemisphere. Having traveled extensively in Latin America, Canada, Europe and the Mid-East, I can assure all of my fellow Americans that the Latin Americans, Canadians, and even the Chinese and Japanese are far less hateful of America than are either the western Europeans or the Arabs.
The best thing America could ever do, and we should do it soon, is go on a crash program to ween ourselves off of Mid-East oil by developing our own oil reserves off of the Gulf of Mexico and Alaska, and craft legislation to develop quickly alternative energy automobiles. Within ten years we wouldn't need Mid-East oil whatsoever. Then we need to pull out of NATO, the Cold War is over and Europe needs to defend itself for a change with their own lives and money. Then, of course, remove all troops from the Mid-East, and quit giving money to Israel and Egypt.
America's future without a doubt, is with the Americas, and a few other places,certainly not with unappreciative,decadent , declining Europe or with the hopelessly crazy and nearly midevil condition of the modern Middle East, with their dictators, basketcase economies and growing Islamic fundamentalism.
Europe and the Mid-East don't like America and it is extremely difficult to respect them. They are much less important to us econmically than North and South America anyway.
Canada, Latin America and East Asia don't like us that much either, but I can tell you from experience that they don't really hate us, and they are more than happy to do business with us and make money.with us. They are practical people and much less moralistic and conceited than the Europeans. Unlike the Europeans,you don't get any lectures from them.
And they are much more "normal" people as it were, than either West Europe or the Muslim world. They aren't decling like Europe and they have few religious fundamentalists like the Muslim countries.

We don't need Europe. Let's see if they have enough courage and the will to defend or take care of themselves. I doubt it but that is not our problem.

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A.C.


Posted By: Beatnik Guy
Date Posted: March 23 2003 at 7:45pm
I could spend time disagreeing with much of what you say, point by point, A.C, but I won't. Suffice to say I think that you manifestly know very little about Europe - or how people there regard the US. I've spent a lot of time there, have you?

(And FWIW, I'm in England - and you know litttle about this country either...certainly much less than I do about the US, which I've also visited 3 times since 9/11).

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Posted By: Lady Maria
Date Posted: March 23 2003 at 8:09pm
Helo A.C.,

You make some excellent points. Very well said!

Getting off of Middle Eastern oil and developing alternative energy and cars is a no brainer. We have the technology to do it, let's do it!

You are also very right about our "allies" in West Europe. My fiance, who is German-American, has been to Germany and France before, ( a couple of years ago,before the present war situation), and felt very uncomfortable there.

The Europeans love to feel morally superior to us "warmongering, imperialistic" Americans. I guess it is easy to be a peacenik and feel morally superior when you don't have to defend yourself, when America will spend their money and use our troops to do it for you.

With the possible exception of the Brits and the Irish,(who you can't help but like), the rest of the Western European countries don't really deserve to be free countries. They take their freedom for granted and are unwilling to do anything to preserve it.

If an Arab totalitarian state or states someday invade Europe and use chemical gas or nukes on them and kill some of them and then take them over and rule them, they have no one but themselves to blame. YOU ARE RIGHT! We should not defend people unwilling to defend themselves and who don't appreciate us.

I guess it's gotten so bad that in many western European countries Americans can't even rent a hotel room and they spit in your food. There have been many documented cases of this. Who needs these weak, cowardly, spoiled brats! They are not our friends or allies! We certainly don't need them, economically or in any way! They have really never done anything for us! We have saved them from Nazism and Communism!

You are also very right that most of our business and trade is now being done with Canada, Mexico, some of the other Latin American countries, as well as China and Japan. I have read many articles in the newspapers about that.

Let the spoiled Italians, Germans and French have their anti-American riots! Let them take care of themselves if they can!

You are right A.C.. I bet most U.S. citizens would agree, especially after seeing the ridiculous, immature behaviour exhibited in Europe recently.


They don't deserve freedom. Only the strong deserve it!



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Lady Maria


Posted By: Lady Maria
Date Posted: March 23 2003 at 8:20pm
Beatnik Guy,

Not all Western Europeans hate America, and I'm sure there are many good people there, but A.C. is right, our future is not with Europe, and we are doing much more trade with Canada, Latin America, China and Japan.

And NATO really is no longer necessary for the U.S. to be involved with.
Europe really does have to, completely, defend themselves.

And of course we should not rely on the unstable Arab countries for oil. Alternative cars pollute less anyway.
It's time to get these cars on the market!



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Lady Maria


Posted By: Sophie
Date Posted: March 24 2003 at 10:54am
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Hassam From LA Wrote:---------------------------------------

Saddam Hussein is not a true Muslim, he is a socialist. He didn''t make the Muslim women cover in Iraq. He is not worthy of support.
Only women who are properly covered and cut can be considered Muslim. Most western Muslim women and Socialist Muslim women are not Muslims and will not have salvation. They are not of Allah, because so many of them don''t obey the clerics, don''t obey their men, are not cut and they don''t cover. They are fallen women like Christian, Jewish and Hindu women.

Al Qaeda I believe are true Muslims. The Taliban were true Muslims. The leaders of Iran , the holy clerics are good Muslims.
A good Muslim can never tolerate democracy, only Allah''s rule is sufficent. Secular democracies talk of freedom of religion but this allows people to stray into evil. Only a government that is of Allah is worth defending.

Good women of America please be modest. Ideally wear a burqa but at least cover your head with a scarf and don''t let men see your body, only a long dress is sufficent.
Only a covered and cut woman has salvation and pleases Allah. Obey your husband. Only your husband should see you uncovered and all Muslim women should marry and have children for Allah. This can make them true Muslims.
God is great! Praise Allah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------





Could you enlighten us on a couple of things Hassam?? What is a cut Woman??

And if you consider a Secular Democracy to be Evil, Why are you here??



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Sophie
http://salonwest.proboards34.com - http://salonwest.proboards34.com


Posted By: Beatnik Guy
Date Posted: March 24 2003 at 2:48pm
FWIW, Saddam Hussein is not a socialist. If he is anything other than a meglomaniac despot, he is an national-socialist, which is something of a different order entirely.



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Posted By: Beatnik Guy
Date Posted: March 24 2003 at 2:52pm
"the ridiculous, immature behaviour exhibited in Europe recently"

That would be *disagreeing* with GWB's view would it? Maybe we don't always agree with the views of other nations' leaders, but do we deny them the right to express those views? Isn't that what happens in Iraq?

France and Germany are sovereign states with as much right to adopt foreign policy postions as the US or UK, IMHO...


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Posted By: uzma
Date Posted: March 24 2003 at 3:00pm
Western Europe is developing into a European Union.
The individual contries within this union do not have the kinds of foreign policy (UK excepted) that are going to create enemies. Peace is a pre-requisite of union and a sign of civility, not stupidity. A sign that security will arise through diplomacy and the application of justice. These are honourable goals.
On the practical side, in terms of trade, one of the objectives of having a single currency (the Euro) is to increase trade by and from the countries that share that currency.
With regard to oil, it is better to have good relationships (political & trade) with the Middle-East than antagonise them by interference in their political affairs.
With regard to trade with the US, there are too many conditions attached. We had rather deal with the eastern world - and are increasingly doing so.
Bravo the European Union.

I do not believe the US are taking Iraq to war (a) for it’s oil (b) to liberate the Iraqi people from the dictatorship of SH. Remember the “axis of evil” speech on 12-Sep-2001. The list of US targets was read out by Bush and he left no one in any doubt that he was going after these countries. Being the world super-power, who was going to take him on? “You’re either with us or against us”. No discussion, no evidence, no moral justification. No wonder they burn the US flag. No wonder they burn effigies of Bush (and now Blair).

Funny how it was the US & UK who created Israel. Funny how they fed, watered and otherwised propped up the evil that is SH. He is their invention. They created the monster they now mean to destroy. And so they should. Here are the keys.
(1) You create a dictator that will keep the Mid-East in turmoil for 20 years. You give him weapons, money and whatever support he needs. You sit back and watch the massacre. No blood on your hands, you say. It’s those fanatical fundamentalists.
(2) You create “contractual agreements” with the leader of key tribes in the Mid-East. You promise them power over huge land masses. You get their oil cheap and sell them your materialist ideology. You install your weapons of mass destruction, distraction and deception in the lands, homes and hearts. You will soon say: “They are not democracies – therefore we have the right to topple them”.
(3) Over a period of 30 years and after 68 UN resolutions have been flouted, Israel has the most powerful army in the Mid-East. It is a democracy, an ally, our friend, you say. You overlook and take out of circulation the facts, the death toll on each side. The generations who are growing poorer and poorer. The generations who are encroaching on the land and blood of others. You don’t use the term religious fundamentalists here. They are your friends, your allies. In fact, you will soon say that Israel is the only democracy in the Mid-East. You will conquer the Mid-East and hand it to Israel. You can do this. No one can stop you, and you will.

Now, just imagine if this happens, what will the world do? What can it do? The US is sooooo strong. The UK knows this but our “leaders” know the US agenda. They have taken the “with us or against us” message to heart.
So, who will win? Will the liars and hypocrites win?
Does Right have a hope against Might?
Can the ordinary person, whose opinion is dependant on what they are fed by the media even decide who is right or wrong? We are sold our opinions, we are even sold counter-arguments and their nicely worked out solutions.

As for the US imperialist agenda, those who refute the US is behaving in this manner need to convince me that the overt control of the World Bank, tied-aid, enforced trade embargoes, neo-colonialism via installed leadership, food sanctions….and I can go on all night and give you examples….are not the actions of an imperialist. The US stomps on the world. That is why it is hated by anyone who has a sense of self-worth and honour.

In terms of “ridiculous and immature behaviour”, the US has said that the display of US PoWs was inhumane and in contravention of the Geneva Convention. When suggested that the US was being hypocritical, a US government official (On Channel 4 news today) started moaning. When Jon Snow (the commentator) started talking about 600 prisoners in Guatanamo who were paraded and displayed with blindfolds, shackles on their hands and feet and plastic gags, the response from the American was “but they were not PoWs, they were non-military combatants. They were not in uniform”.
Ha Ha Ha. So they weren’t military, therefore no PoW rights, they aren’t civilians, so no civil rights (no trial) and obviously they aren’t human – so no human rights.
I am sorry for the US and Iraqi military personnel who have been taken prisoner. But those 600 in Guatanamo are in a league of their own. Their families don’t know where they are or what will become of them.
Arrogant injustice is the act of an imperialist and a dictator.
I hear you Bush and Blair with your big boots coming stomping. The bullies have entered the playground.
They are counting on us all to be cowards.


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Uzi



Posted By: Sophie
Date Posted: March 24 2003 at 3:31pm
God, I pray your wrong Uzma.

As an American, if what you say is true, I know that it is not what any Americans I know feel in their hearts...And I hear people every day expressing their consern for and hope for peace, and the health and wellbeing of others, not just in this country.

Maybe we are just nieve or misled by our media...But there are Millions and Millions of good people here (as well as all over the world).

Maybe America has the power to do as you say, But I pray your wrong about us.

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Sophie
http://salonwest.proboards34.com - http://salonwest.proboards34.com


Posted By: uzma
Date Posted: March 24 2003 at 4:04pm
Sophie

Please don't misunderstand me.
I am NOT referring to the American people.
I know the American people want to just get on and live their lives happily and peacefully and not bother anyone else.

I am talking about those who are playing the "great game". The power behind the politics.

No blame attaches to the innocent.
Innocents were massacred on 9-11 as were innocents massacred in the holocaust as are innocents slowly being killed-off in Israel.

We let the so-called leaders take over the world and rule over us. They lord their power over us.
Our position is deep weakness and ignorance.

It is similar to the position of slaves, except that we have material comforts and freedom that we can do nothing of real consequence with to appease our sense of entrapment. Whole nations are anaesthesized by TV, shopping, dare I say it ...Hair Talk Forums....weapons of mass distraction.
We live our lives uncounsciously, safe within the protective dreams that are spun for us.

Our error/mistake/responsibility is that when the wake-up call comes, we don't want to know. We don't want our comfort shattered by the realization that while we sleep, atrocities are funded with our money and committed in our name.


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Uzi



Posted By: Sophie
Date Posted: March 24 2003 at 5:19pm
Well I'm hearing you better now, thanks Uzma...And I know your right.



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Sophie
http://salonwest.proboards34.com - http://salonwest.proboards34.com


Posted By: Unregistered Guest
Date Posted: March 24 2003 at 7:12pm
Interesting political posting from you folks..........

There always has been and always will be war. I see no evidence of that changing. Not that we are at war all the time, but it is part of what we do, along with many other things. It has never been different. After all, human beings are a kind of animal. The fact we can play music, build buildings, or program computers doesn't change our basic emotional/physical makeup. To some degree we are programmed towards hostility along with our other emotions.

Power competition and arraingments,( and sometimes conflicts), are inherent in us .There always has been and always will be complex political/social/economic problems that change from time to time.
Saddam was considered the lesser of two evils in the Iraq/Iran war by the West. Later after a variety of things happened and the political climate changed in ways that are very complex and that I could write for 100 pages about, including internal domestic political struggles in both Iraq and in the U.S. Congress, he had a falling out with the U.S.. . And it goes way beyond some of the simplistic statements made here.

Politics are in flux a little like human relationships. You can be in love with your spouse and two years later want to kill them and end up getting divorced. Been there done that.
Germany and Japan were Americas bitterest enemies in the 1940s. We lost 500,000 men fighting them. By 1960 they were some of our staunchest allies.
Personally I admire the Arabs more than some of the western Europeans like the French and Germans. The Arabs, in many ways, are more like Americans than some of our allies in western Europe. Arabs are more family orientated and have more kids than western Europeans. So do Americans . Arabs are generally religious and have a high ratio of Mosque attendance percentagewise just as Americans have a high percentage of churchgoers compared to western Europe. Arabs are generally more conservative than western Europeans in their social views . Americans are also generally more conservative than other western countries. In fact before 9/11 occured the conservative Republican Party in the U.S worked Arab neighborhoods hard for votes because they liked their conservative attitudes. Many Arabs vote Republican, much more than some ethnic groups.

Today we regard the very liberal societies of western Europe as friends and allies but this may not last. Americans, despite being mostly Christian , really have a mind set much more like the Arab world than the western European world. We believe in democracy but we really are pretty conservative, even many of our Democratic Party people would be considered conservative in Europe.
That is another reason that Americans are drawing closer to Latin America than western Europe. The Latins have more conservative social views than the Europeans. It's not just money that attractes nations and cultures to each other and determines political co-operation.
My prediction is that 10 years or so from now the politics/social/economic circumstances will change again and America will be much closer not only to Latin America but also to the conservative Arab world than to the liberal European world that most Americans (outside of a few liberal areas on our coasts) can't relate that much to.
Every survey indicates that Americans have trouble relating to the agnostic religious and liberal social views of Europeans. It is obvious that Americans are gradually pulling away from western Europe and more towards conservative societies. I personally don't think the Nato Alliance will last much longer.
Of course I could be wrong.

I know one thing for certain though and I have been around long enough to know this: ........the explanations given by either right wing or left wing idealists are usually only partial truths. The situation is usually much more complex than that.



Posted By: Unregistered Guest
Date Posted: March 24 2003 at 7:55pm
Uzma:

You wrote that poverty is increasing in the Muslim world. This is true, although not entirely because of the reasons you state.
Most parts of the world are racing ahead of the Muslims economically. Some people believe this is because most of the world is now democratic and most Muslim countries aren't.
I don't think that is it. China is not democratic and it has greatly reduced poverty and has high economic growth.
Some people believe the population has grown too fast in the Muslim world and that is the reason for the increase in poverty. That is only a partial explanation. The U.S., some Latin American countries and some Far East countries have grown just as fast in population in the past two decades as many Muslim countries.
Nor is it "American Imperialism". Americans influence everyone everywhere : socially, politically and economically. Yet many of these nations we influence, that we are "Imperialistic" to, are thriving more than ever with great increases in longevity, job growth and standard of living.

The problem, in a nutshell , in the Muslim World, particullarily in the Mid-East and Mediterranean rim, is the lack of diversity of economy. The Mid-east is too much of a one note Johnny economically. It is far too dependent on oil revenues, and the Mid-East unlike for example the East Asian nations, and to some degree even India and Latin America , have not developed a diverse and broadbased industrial/technological, high tech job and business base. Your politics aren't completely offbase Uzma but you won't get far just ranting and raving about the Zionest Israelis and the Imperialist Americans. That is really very old stuff. Most of the world has moved way beyond that and is involved in the new international economy and doesn't even worry about what America, much less Israel, thinks or does.
Like a Chinese government official I heard on the radio today said when asked about the Mid-East circumstances . He said "we don't really have a dog in that fight". Most countries and people in the world don't let whatever good or nasty things America is doing at the moment really phase them. They are busy with their own creative ideas; their own businesses' jobs, families,etc........ The old left wing "blame the imperialist" rhetoric won't get you far in solving the Muslim world's problems.
A more diverse economy will.


Posted By: Unregistered Guest
Date Posted: March 24 2003 at 7:56pm
Uzma:

You wrote that poverty is increasing in the Muslim world. This is true, although not entirely because of the reasons you state.
Most parts of the world are racing ahead of the Muslims economically. Some people believe this is because most of the world is now democratic and most Muslim countries aren't.
I don't think that is it. China is not democratic and it has greatly reduced poverty and has high economic growth.
Some people believe the population has grown too fast in the Muslim world and that is the reason for the increase in poverty. That is only a partial explanation. The U.S., some Latin American countries and some Far East countries have grown just as fast in population in the past two decades as many Muslim countries.
Nor is it "American Imperialism". Americans influence everyone everywhere : socially, politically and economically. Yet many of these nations we influence, that we are "Imperialistic" to, are thriving more than ever with great increases in longevity, job growth and standard of living.

The problem, in a nutshell , in the Muslim World, particullarily in the Mid-East and Mediterranean rim, is the lack of diversity of economy. The Mid-east is too much of a one note Johnny economically. It is far too dependent on oil revenues, and the Mid-East unlike for example the East Asian nations, and to some degree even India and Latin America , have not developed a diverse and broadbased industrial/technological, high tech job and business base. Your politics aren't completely offbase Uzma but you won't get far just ranting and raving about the Zionest Israelis and the Imperialist Americans. That is really very old stuff. Most of the world has moved way beyond that and is involved in the new international economy and doesn't even worry about what America, much less Israel, thinks or does.
Like a Chinese government official I heard on the radio today said when asked about the Mid-East circumstances . He said "we don't really have a dog in that fight". Most countries and people in the world don't let whatever good or nasty things America is doing at the moment really phase them. They are busy with their own creative ideas; their own businesses' jobs, families,etc........ The old left wing "blame the imperialist" rhetoric won't get you far in solving the Muslim world's problems.
A more diverse economy will.


Posted By: Lady Maria
Date Posted: March 24 2003 at 9:10pm
Hello Brent! Glad you wrote! You are another smart one!
We are really getting some interesting viewpoints here aren't we! I don't know if any of us are really right but at least we are using our thinking caps!


I agree with you on some things and disagree on others Brent.


For sure we are getting ever more connected to Latin America and growing further away from Europe. And we are for sure more conservative than Europe. Over 1/2 of Americans attend church every week. I read that in Europe it is 2% weekly church attendance, which is unfathomable to most Americans! We do have larger family sizes and more immigrants, especially from Latin America, and we are growing rapidly in population and in economic growth.

Europe's population is stagnant and in some countries even declining. And because their economy is more socialistic and regulated than ours they don't have the job growth we have and have chronically higher unemployment. But their government does provide more services but they pay for it with higher taxes.

I have to disagree with you Brent about the Muslim world though. Europe's major ethnic minority and immigrant group is Arab Muslims. In the U.S. it is Christian Hispanics. The U.S. is less than 2% Muslim. The Western Hemisphere is 1% Muslim. That is very different than Europe or the Middle East.

We are more conservative like the Arabs but we are very Christian. It is very hard for most Americans to understand the Arab world. As soon as we switch off of oil to alternative fuels, which we eventually will do, I think we will have little to do with either Europe or the Middle East. And has been mentioned on this thread already, most of our trade is with Canada, Mexico, Latin America and the Buddhist countries of eastern Asia, whom we don't seem to have many problems with. In fact the East Asians are so good at business and science and so easy to get along with, that most Americans enjoy doing business with East Asians. European-Americans that I know seem to like the Chinese and Japanese better than they like their fellow white Europeans from Europe. The exception to that may be the Brits and the Irish whom everyone in America seems to like better than other Europeans.

I agree with you that most of the world progresses whether America is "Imperialist" or not. Most of the riots and hysteria over American policy( other than liberal wealthy kids on college campuses) is in Western Europe or the Muslim world. The rest of the world doesn't care that much especially Latin America and East Asia.

I was talking with my fiancee tonight Brent . He read somewhere on the internet that 40 million people worldwide have attended anti-war rallies against U.S. and British policies. That sounds like a huge number until you realize that there are 6.2 billion people in the world. 40 million isn't even 1% of the world!

Even if most of the world doesn't like the war, you are right, they have other things they are doing in their working and personal lives. Just like we read about some problem between the Catholics and Protestants in northern Ireland or the Hutus and Tutsis in Rawandha, and we say "that's too bad" then we go on with our lives.

You can't take the problems of the whole world on your shoulders, it's too big a world with too many conflicts and problems.


Uzma thinks the whole world hates America but they listen to our music, eat our hamburgers, and watch our movies practically everywhere! And most of them COULD CARE LESS about America OR the Middle East. They have got their own problems.



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Lady Maria


Posted By: uzma
Date Posted: March 25 2003 at 1:23pm
Originally posted by Lady Maria Lady Maria wrote:


Uzma thinks the whole world hates America but they listen to our music, eat our hamburgers, and watch our movies practically everywhere!


GOD!!!! That's it!!! I've been soooo blind and stupid.....and SIMPLISTIC.

Thank you Lady Maria, for putting me right.

Project Liberation Afganistan and Iraq and.."add the next country"...and "add the next seven countries" are all about saving these poor, misguided people from their own crap music and un-nutritious diets and unwholesome culture.
I should have known. Doh.

It's been a day full of such insights. In fact someone else "liberated" me from my false ideas about history today. See for yourself:


1. How come that the most up-todate ship of the time, the "Titanic",could
be sunk by a puny iceberg? George W. finally found the answer. It was
Saddam's grandfather who designed the murderous iceberg. When the sunken
hull of the Titanic was discovered, they found among the wreckage an
instruction booklet, in Arabic, titled "How to Pilot Icebergs," along with
an Iraqi passport, both in perfect condition.

2. How could Japan attack Pearl Harbor with US intelligence unable toforesee
the tragedy? Now we know! Saddam's father planned it with the Japanese and
managed to befuddle the Americans. This is according to evidence passed on
to Bush by Sharon, whose honesty and reliability Bush can never doubt.
Sharon's was basing his information on transcripts of telephone
conversations between Iraqi and Japanese military given to him by one of the
UN inspectors to Iraq, who was doubling as a Mossad agent, who in turnhad
received them from the vindictive first husband of one of Saddam's current
wives.

3. The CIA finally discovered that the WW2 kamikaze Japanese pilots were
trained in Afghanistan to conduct suicide missions. This was confirmed
by documents found in Mulla Omar's presidential compound.

4. Harvey Lee Oswald who killed John Kennedy was not a lone operator. He
had trained at the al Qaeda camps located South of Baghdad. These camps
have since moved to Afghanistan because Saddam demanded rent for leasing the
facility to al Qaeda. This was revealed to Ashcroft by one of the detainees
in Guantanemo Bay.

5. Timothy McVeigh, who was convicted of the Oklahoma bombing, was actually
born in Tikrit, Iraq, and is a distant cousin of Saddam Hussain. His
original name is Tamim MacTikrit. Jerry Falwell had the full story revealed
to him in one of his trances which puts him in direct communication with the
God of Evangelical Christians. For those who are not yet aware, the God of
Falwell is more senior to the God that we all believe in, or so Falwell
claims, hence he has the final word in any celestial dispute.

6. World War II was in fact started by Saddam Hussain's family. Hitler
studied military strategy at Habbaniya in Iraq, which is close to where
Saddam' father lived. That is also where Hitler learned the secrets ofthe
atom bomb, but was unable to design one in time because the instructions
which he carried away with him were in Arabic and the only ones who could
read and translate Arabic into German were German Jews and Hitler
wouldn't trust them.

7. Research is being undertaken now by Condoleezza Rice along with theFBI,
the CIA and the Bush family to determine if any of Saddam Hussain's
family were responsible for WWI. They have already determined that none of
Saddam's family were responsible for the Korean War, but there is some
doubt about the Vietnam war. Documents leaked out of Russia after the collapse
of Communism turned up a picture of Ho Chi Minh shaking hands with the Iraqi
ambassador at a reception in Moscow. Now everybody is waiting for
confirmation from Jerry Falwell when he goes into one of his periodic
communications with heaven. But William Safire of the NY Times is not
waiting for heavenly confirmation, he insists that the picture is
irrefutable evidence of Iraq's involvement.


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Uzi



Posted By: Sophie
Date Posted: March 25 2003 at 4:52pm
Whaaat??? Uzma?

What was all that about?




I really enjoyed your posts Brent, Thanks.

I've enjoyed all of these posts....

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Sophie
http://salonwest.proboards34.com - http://salonwest.proboards34.com


Posted By: Brent E
Date Posted: March 25 2003 at 6:32pm
Your writing made some sense Uzma until this last post. Your logic is all over the place.

I don't know you Uzma but my impression is you are, for whatever reason, very bitter. Many people are. I'm sorry about that.
It's really not the end of the world. I am sorry you are so filled with rage.

Thanks Sophie.


Posted By: Lady Maria
Date Posted: March 25 2003 at 7:24pm
Brent and Sophie,

Uzma was attempting to be clever. You know, sarcastic.

This thread was an interesting conversation for awhile. It's sort of deteriorating into emotional jibberish. When it just gets to be anger and sarcasim not much of anything interesting gets said.

But as I initially said, I just hope the war gets over as soon as possible with a minimum of causalities.
I don't know if that is going to happen the way things are going.

I hope my cousin, Ingrid's brother , and other friends and relatives of people on this board make it home safe and that the war is over soon.

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Lady Maria


Posted By: Unregistered Guest
Date Posted: March 25 2003 at 7:33pm
Hi! I''m not going to get in to political arguments...to be honest..I didn''t even read most of the lengthy posts. I just wanted to say, not only do our troops need support...they need our prayers! The troops and their families. I''ve had several people that I know (5 to be exact) be sent overseas..2 of which have already died. they''re families and I (they were really close friends of mine) are absolutely devastated. Pray for the quick and safe return of our troops. I support the president and believe his cause is just, but I hope it''s over soon. God bless you all.
Sarah <3


Posted By: Lady Maria
Date Posted: March 25 2003 at 8:51pm
I'm sorry that your friends were killed. Were they killed in a recent conflict?

In this war that is going on now?



I hope the war is over soon too withas few deaths as possible on either side.

I know many of us have friends or relatives over there. It is a difficult time but America has lost people many times before and we always seem to get through it.

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Lady Maria


Posted By: uzma
Date Posted: March 26 2003 at 12:25am
My sympathies to you Sarah. I hope this war is over soon with a minimum of casualties on either side.

My sympathies also to the un-named 600 in Guatanamo. Held for over a year without a trial and without hope. They and their families (who must be so distressed not knowing if their sons are dead or alive or how they are being treated) are undergoing a torture I would not wish upon anyone.

My sympathies also to those Americans who have been captured by the Iraqis. I hope they are treated well and sent home to their families. At least we know who they are.

For those who didn't understand my last post - I seem only to be getting through to Lady Maria - Yes - it was sarcasm and cynicism (I had that kind of day).

I am not bitter. I am hopeful.
This life is fairly short. Each of us is heading towards our death and those of us who have faith believe that we will be judged and held accountable for our deeds.
We try and tell the truth and do justice in this world, but if we fail, nothing is lost as Divine justice will be dealt.
That will truly "shock and awe".

May God bless everyone. May He strengthen the righteous and weaken the evil-doers.
You and I may not be able to determine who/what is right or wrong.
We don't know all the "whys", but those who continue to lie, cheat and gamble with the lives of others should know that GOD KNOWS ALL and there is no escape from Him.


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Uzi



Posted By: Lady Maria
Date Posted: March 26 2003 at 9:13pm
I was thinking today about America's cultural influence on the world and I have to admit that alot of what we export is junk, especially some of our junk food, which many Americans, including myself, don't actually eat all that much, and some of our pop music, especially rap and heavy metal(which is idiot teenage racket music).

What is disturbing is not so much that America exports this junk, (after all we are a society descended from lower class, crude peasants that immigrated to America because we were the poor unwanted, uncultured, working class of other countries) but that supposedly more cultured and sophisticated people, like the Western Europeans, purchase so much of this junk!If they are so cultured and have produced the Beethovens and Monets of the world, why do they buy so much of this garbage?
And you can't blame it just on big business and advertising alone, after all you have to assume that Europeans actually have minds, and freedom of choice, and the capacity to make intelligent decisions on what to buy.

I'm not saying all of our food and pop music is bad; some traditional American food is very good and healthy, as well as some of our ethnic food.

And some American blues, country/bluegrass music, Latin jazz music,etc. is actually wonderful music, but it seems that the WORST of American music sells the most overseas!( Cases in point ;Emimnen, Michael Jackson, Marilyn Manson, violent Metal and "Gangsta" rap, etc.).

Our great singers and musicians like John Hyatt, Tito Puentes, Los Lobos, Alison Krausse, Vince Gill,etc., many people overseas know nothing about them, but they know our noisy, juvenile, teenage junk music!
Maybe us Americans don't know better, crude people that we are, but these supposedly sophisticated foreigners should know better.

But they buy more of this garbage than many Americans do!

I will defend our movie industry though. Obviously there are many stupid movies made and many uneccesairly violent shoot 'em up action movies made, but there are also some great movies made in America, and I think those movies are popular worldwide for a reason. They are interesting and very entertaining.
I do love the movies! They can be a great escape from the mundane tedium of everyday life!

Of course much of the foreign pop music I have heard isn't a whole lot better than America's. I guess there isn't that much really great pop music.

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Lady Maria


Posted By: uzma
Date Posted: March 27 2003 at 2:00am
Lady Maria

The reason US pop is sold in large quantites to Western Europe (and I refute the claim that you sell more in Western Europe than you do in the US) is because it targets it's marketing at the pre-teens.
We don't really produce much by way of competetion for this age group (although we have started a good line in boy bands).
Also, US pop is heavily promoted on the junk music channels e.g MTV, which is constantly playing this stuff. Also, other products are sold to these pre-teens that engange them in a lifestyle heaviliy linked to the purchase of certainn clothes, make-up, music, etc.
Nice tidy package.
When they hit their teens and 20s their tastes mature and they start buying better stuff. It's the psychology of marketing.
A very successful strategy with respect to pop music.

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Uzi



Posted By: uzma
Date Posted: March 27 2003 at 2:02am
On a more serious note................


LONDON: Suddenly, the government of the United States has discovered the virtues of international law. It may be waging an illegal war against a sovereign state; it may be seeking to destroy every treaty which impedes its attempts to run the world , but when five of its captured soldiers were paraded in front of the Iraqi television cameras on Sunday, Donald Rumsfeld, the US defence secretary, immediately complained that "it is against the Geneva convention to show photographs of prisoners of war in a manner that is humiliating for them".

He is, of course, quite right. Article 13 of the third convention, concerning the treatment of prisoners, insists that they "must at all times be protected ... against insults and public curiosity". This may number among the less heinous of the possible infringements of the laws of war, but the conventions, ratified by Iraq in 1956, are non-negotiable. If you break them, you should expect to be prosecuted for war crimes.

This being so, Rumsfeld had better watch his back. For this enthusiastic convert to the cause of legal warfare is, as head of the defence department, responsible for a series of crimes sufficient, were he ever to be tried, to put him away for the rest of his natural life.

His prison camp in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, where 641 men (nine of whom are British citizens) are held, breaches no fewer than 15 articles of the third convention. The US government broke the first of these (article 13) as soon as the prisoners arrived, by displaying them, just as the Iraqis have done, on television. In this case, however, they were not encouraged to address the cameras.

They were kneeling on the ground, hands tied behind their backs, wearing blacked-out goggles and earphones. In breach of article 18, they had been stripped of their own clothes and deprived of their possessions.

They were then interned in a penitentiary (against article 22), where they were denied proper mess facilities (26), canteens (28), religious premises (34), opportunities for physical exercise (38), access to the text of the convention (41), freedom to write to their families (70 and 71) and parcels of food and books (72).

They were not "released and repatriated without delay after the cessation of active hostilities" (118), because, the US authorities say, their interrogation might, one day, reveal interesting information about Al Qaeda. Article 17 rules that captives are obliged to give only their name, rank, number and date of birth. No "coercion may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever". In the hope of breaking them, however, the authorities have confined them to solitary cells and subjected them to what is now known as "torture lite": sleep deprivation and constant exposure to bright light. Unsurprisingly, several of the prisoners have sought to kill themselves, by smashing their heads against the walls or trying to slash their wrists with plastic cutlery.

The US government claims that these men are not subject to the Geneva conventions, as they are not "prisoners of war", but "unlawful combatants". The same claim could be made, with rather more justice, by the Iraqis holding the US soldiers who illegally invaded their country. But this redefinition is itself a breach of article 4 of the third convention, under which people detained as suspected members of a militia (the Taliban) or a volunteer corps (Al Qaeda) must be regarded as prisoners of war.

Even if there is doubt about how such people should be classified, article 5 insists that they "shall enjoy the protection of the present convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal". But when, earlier this month, lawyers representing 16 of them demanded a court hearing, the US court of appeals ruled that as Guantanamo Bay is not sovereign US territory, the men have no constitutional rights. Many of these prisoners appear to have been working in Afghanistan as teachers, engineers or aid workers. If the US government either tried or released them, its embarrassing lack of evidence would be brought to light.

You would hesitate to describe these prisoners as lucky, unless you knew what had happened to some of the other men captured by the Americans and their allies in Afghanistan. On November 21 2001, around 8,000 Taliban soldiers and Pakhtoon civilians surrendered at Konduz to the Northern Alliance commander, General Abdul Rashid Dostum. Many of them have never been seen again.

As Jamie Doran's film Afghan Massacre: Convoy of Death records, some hundreds, possibly thousands, of them were loaded into container lorries at Qala-i-Zeini, near the town of Mazar-i- Sharif, on November 26 and 27. The doors were sealed and the lorries were left to stand in the sun for several days. At length, they departed for Sheberghan prison, 80 miles away. The prisoners, many of whom were dying of thirst and asphyxiation, started banging on the sides of the trucks. Dostum's men stopped the convoy and machine-gunned the containers. When they arrived at Sheberghan, most of the captives were dead.

The US special forces running the prison watched the bodies being unloaded. They instructed Dostum's men to "get rid of them before satellite pictures can be taken". Doran interviewed a Northern Alliance soldier guarding the prison. "I was a witness when an American soldier broke one prisoner's neck. The Americans did whatever they wanted. We had no power to stop them." Another soldier alleged: "They took the prisoners outside and beat them up, and then returned them to the prison. But sometimes they were never returned, and they disappeared."

Many of the survivors were loaded back in the containers with the corpses, then driven to a place in the desert called Dasht-i-Leili. In the presence of up to 40 US special forces, the living and the dead were dumped into ditches. Anyone who moved was shot.

The German newspaper Die Zeit investigated the claims and concluded that: "No one doubted that the Americans had taken part. Even at higher levels there are no doubts on this issue." The US group Physicians for Human Rights visited the places identified by Doran's witnesses and found they "all ... contained human remains consistent with their designation as possible grave sites".

It should not be necessary to point out that hospitality of this kind also contravenes the third Geneva convention, which prohibits "violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture", as well as extra-judicial execution. Donald Rumsfeld's department, assisted by a pliant media, has done all it can to suppress Jamie Doran's film, while General Dostum has begun to assassinate his witnesses.

It is not hard, therefore, to see why the US government fought first to prevent the establishment of the international criminal court, and then to ensure that its own citizens are not subject to its jurisdiction. The five soldiers dragged in front of the cameras yesterday should thank their lucky stars that they are prisoners not of the American forces fighting for civilization, but of the "barbaric and inhuman" Iraqis.

George Monbiot, Dawn/The Guardian News Service.


-------------
Uzi



Posted By: Lady Maria
Date Posted: March 27 2003 at 6:27am
Yeah and the Iraqis have been murdering, in cold blood, American POWs. It's nasty and it's war.
The reason the prisoners have been held in Cuba is that they are Al Qaeda and Taliban terrorists.
Even most Muslims don't care about them.

We are at war, bad things are going to happen. I'm sure there are better Muslims and better people in general to worry about Uzma than Al Qaeda terrorists.

You know who I worry about Uzma? Poor children of the world. Even though my fiancee and I plan on having children of our own after we are marrried in May, we also sponser two children in Hondurous through the Christian Childrens Fund. These children otherwise wouldn't have their necessities of life. Now they do and they have medical care and go to school.

Why don't you help some poor children rather than worrying about some fanatical half-witted homocidal/suicidal terrorist thugs. And don't tell me they are innocent , we know better.

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Lady Maria


Posted By: Unregistered Guest
Date Posted: March 27 2003 at 6:56am
Prove it Maria.
I haven't seen any proof.
You seen any? Show me?
If those guys in Guatamamo are terrorists why don't we have them up in front of a jury in front of the whole world and prove it?

Or is this the good ol' American way? Is this what our soldiers are upholding?

I don't think we can take the moral high ground while this hypocrisy continues.


Posted By: Lady Maria
Date Posted: March 27 2003 at 7:07am
And I'm getting a little tired and bored of hearing how terrible the Americans and British are.

American farmers have donated over the years billions of tons of food to starving people across the world, preventing millions from starvation. Hundreds of thousands of our men have died so that people didn't have to live under the tyranny of Nazism and Communism. We have given billions in grants and loans to developing countries, and contrary to the myth, the countries who have used this money responsibility have dramatically improved their standard of living; countries as diverse as Taiwan, South Korea, Ghana, Malaysia,etc.In some cases irresponsible dictatorships have blown or sqaundered the money so they owe debts, but that is their irresponsibility, and these debts usually end up being written off, although the debts shouldn't be.

I've met your type before Uzma,we have many liberal/radicals like yourself in the U.S. would spend their days and nights complaining about how terrible America is. We call them professional protestors.

If not for the U.S., Britian and a few of our allies, the world would have a much lower standard of living, less modern science, technology, and modern medicine. Much less modern agriculture which feed the growing billions, much less international trade and much less freedom and democracy. Whatever bad I'm sure we have done, we have also done much good, which most of the non-Muslim world DOES understand, contrary to what radical Muslims or radical leftists say.

Radical leftists and religious radicals are unhappy, bitter losers Uzma. Al Qaeda and the Taliban are losers. They are not good Muslims. The good Muslims are modern people that know how to co-operate with other people including Americans.

I don't mind some criticism of America and long as people also see our positive side and our numerous positive contributions.

You are beginning to bore me Uzma, you are just a broken record bad mouthing America and Britian. People who bad mouths others constantly without seeing the positive in people are usually losers in their personal life. Who wants to be around a bitter negative, complaining person all of the time?

I am a positive person and I have positive things to do in my life. I work hard, I'm getting married soon, I want kids, I volunteer at my church and my fiancee and I sponser poor children. I think we are good people and positive people. And I really am a little bored about hearing how bad the American government and Americans are. It is a little more complex than that.

You only state the negative about Americans Uzma and I'm tired of it. I don't respect people that only see the negative about America.

The U.S. was built by poor people from around the world. Most of us come from very poor immigrants. America has given more people from more ethnic groups a chance at a better life than any other country, and we have worked very hard to build a very great country. Even today Americans have the longest workweek in the industrial world. We come from good hard working peasant stock.

I feel blessed and privledged to be an American. Millions still immigrate to America, especially the poor hard working people from Latin America. This is still the land of oppurtunity and the land of freedom and an inspiration for many poor countries and poor peoples around the world.

The next time you write try saying something positive about Americans otherwise don't waste my time. I have a very active and positive life and I don't need alot of whiners and complainers around me sapping my energy.




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Lady Maria


Posted By: Lady Maria
Date Posted: March 27 2003 at 7:10am
Is that your real name Alice in Wonderland? Grow up a little. Of all the many people in the world to worry about, you worry about some thugs in the Taliban.

Get a life, do something for poor people or volunteer in your community.

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Lady Maria


Posted By: Unregistered Guest
Date Posted: March 27 2003 at 7:25am
Answer the question Maria.


Posted By: Unregistered Guest
Date Posted: March 27 2003 at 7:32am
Answer the question Maria Dubya Bush.

And don't you dare make assumptions about who I am and how I live my life, Dubya.

Why don't you travel Dubya - go and see how the rest of the world drinks American pop AND burns the Stars'n'Stripes.

Why do you think that is Dubya?



Posted By: Unregistered Guest
Date Posted: March 27 2003 at 7:43am
Amen Maria!!!!! You are so right girl!!!!!

It doesn't matter "Alice in Wonderland" if we can prove they are guilty or not. They are part of the terrorist group and WE ARE AT WAR! We shouldn't even be keeping them alive!!! We are only keeping them alive to get information about terrorists so that they don't knock down more buildings or poison our water supply and kill millions!!!
THIS IS WARTIME! THEY DON"T GET A TRIAL LIKE AN ORDINARY CRIMINAL!
And they kill our POWS !!!! So who cares about them!!! It is wartime!!! Treat them like they treat us! We didn't worry about killin Nazis in W.W.2 did we?????

You ever notice Maria how these "professional left wing radical protestors" are allways from upper class families??? And they usually don't have kids. You ever notice that???
While us Blacks, Hispanics, and blue collar Whites are building the country, fightin the wars and havin the kids, these rich anti-social, anti-American little brat punks think they are so much better than us!!!!
I ain't no Republican and I didn't vote for Bush but I hope we kick the everlovin daylights out of these Muslim lunatics.
Arab cab drivers in America won't pick up Black people in their cabs. Arabs don't like Black people in their stores and give you a dirty look and won't say hi when you say hi to them. What are they even doin in our country?????????? We got other people and other immigrants that will respect Americans!!!



Posted By: Lady Maria
Date Posted: March 27 2003 at 8:11am
Thanks Melba for the compliment. I agree we are at war and different rules apply, although I don't think we should kill POWs, but we have a right to hold them during wartime without a trial. They are not American citizens.
I don't think we need to be mean to Muslims though Melba. there are many good Arabs and Muslims in the U.S.. I'm sorry you have had bad experiences with Arabs. Many are nice people.

"Alice" you are very immature. I am a political independent who didn't vote for Bush I voted for Gore. But I do support our troops. I have a cousin over there. Many of us have friends and relatives there. And yes I do think the people of Iraq would do better under a civilzed government rather than Saddam.

I have traveled in Canada and Latin America. I got along fine with people there and I also get along fine with people from various countries who have immigrated to the U.S. for a better life.

There are 6.2 biilion people in the world. According to the BBC more than 40 million people have attended anti-American, anti-British protests. That is less than 1% of the world. And only a small fraction of them are so immature they would burn a flag.

There were anti-American protests throughout the world during the Cold war against Communism as well. Far more people protested America then. But most rational people agree today that it is a good thing that most of the brutal Communist dictatorships are gone, and that in fact America was right to be against Communist dictatorships.

As Tony Blair said, despite the turmoil now, history will prove us right to remove Saddam Hussein. Just as it proved us right in opposing the Nazis and the Communists.

I may not have voted for Bush but I am proud to be an American. My ancestors were poor people from Mexico and this country has given us a chance for a better life.
And people who burn the flag are immature losers. I have had relatives who fought and sometimes died in World War II, the Korean War,and the Vietnam War , as well as recently. I am proud that they served our country.

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Lady Maria


Posted By: Unregistered Guest
Date Posted: March 27 2003 at 9:21am
So neither of you gals believe in **Innocent until proven guilty** unless it suits you?
I suppose justice is un-patriotic huh?
My brother is over there and my father served in Vietnam, unlike George Dubya. Neither the two of them think this war is justified.
The pope doesn't think this war is justified, nor does the UN.
If my brother dies in this war (God forbid), what will he have given his life for?
If its for folks with ignorant attitudes like yours than he will have wasted his life.


Posted By: Lady Maria
Date Posted: March 27 2003 at 9:51am
I hope your brother doesn't die. I hope my cousin doesn't die either.
But none of our soliders who died fighting dictators in any war died for no reason. Their memory is to be honored.

I'm a lifelong Catholic and I am not thrilled with the Pope or the Catholic leadership. They co-operated with the Nazis in W.W.II. They have repeatedly covered up for pedophile priests and kept them on the job. They still sometimes do. They won't allow priests to marry even though every other religion does. They won't let women be priests. 75% of American Catholics disagree with the Pope's policies.

The U.N. is a joke. It never once stopped a genocide, even though it had many chances to do so. It never once got rid of a brutal dictator.

40% of the U.N. is dictatorships. A brutal dictatorship has equal voting rights in the U.N. as a civilized democracy like Australia, Japan or Canada.
The U.N. couldn't or wouldn't stop the genocide in Bosnia and Kosovo. It didn't stop until the Americans and British sent in their forces.

The U.N. repeatdly voted against the U.S. and Britian throughout the Cold War. If we had listened to the U.N., communism would have won and you wouldn't be able to voice a free opinion today.

No solider fighting for freedom has ever died in vain. I hope my cousin doesn't die over there. I love the guy but he is a brave man who knows what the risks are.

We will win this war, and yes some people will die. But the world will go on as it always does. America will go on, Britian will go on. So will the Muslim world. And slowly but surely the world is developing econmically, and democracy and freedom is spreading. In the 1950s only 25% of the world was democratic. Today it is 60%. And people have a much longer life expectancy now worldwide( about 25 years longer on average), than they did 50 years ago.

Much of this progress is because of the influence of America and the West, as well as allies in other parts of the world like Japan.( Japan by the way is one of 43 countries now backing the U.S. and Britian. And more will follow over the next few months as we win the war and install a better government in Iraq after getting rid of Saddam).

I have to go to work now, I've made my statements. As I said before I hope the war is as short as possible with as few deaths as possible on either side.

As Uzma said, God bless everyone!

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Lady Maria


Posted By: Lady Maria
Date Posted: March 27 2003 at 10:01am
As far as the POWs go, when potentially millions of us could be killed by terrorists using chemical or biological warfare, National Security trumps the rights of non-American citizens who have been directly or indirectly involved with the Taliban or Al qaeda.
All countries, including the U.S., have different rules during wartime. Our government has to make difficult decisions, difficult judgement calls. It is not an ideal world and it is good to have very high ideals and we should attempt whenever possible to live up to them but common sense and National security and our survival has to take precedence before all of our ideals, at least in some difficult war and terrorist circumstances.

We will win this war, and it won't be in all ways an ideal situation that is for sure. And there will be other bad things we have to deal with in the future.

But the world goes on.

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Lady Maria


Posted By: Brent
Date Posted: March 27 2003 at 11:15am
Very well said Maria! BRAVO!
You have a very balanced and mature view of international circumstances and are able to articulate your veiws exceedingly well. You are a bright lady.

A couple of side notes:
I certainly hope no one's brother or cousin dies in Iraq but going by the stats you are actually in more danger and the death rates are higher working a construction job in America or driving a taxicab in a major American city, than being in the U.S. army.
Our major urban centers are also more dangerous than most war zones. We lose 30 thousand to murder every year in the U.S., another 40 thousand in car wrecks, thousands more to drug overdoses or industrial accidents. Your odds, if you are a young man and live in a major American metro, are greater of dying if you stay in this country than if you are in Iraq! The stats back this up. Maybe that is why Americans are less frightened of war than the people of many other nations. We are more accustomed to dealing with death than many western countries.
Because of our fast population growth, despite our higher death rates, we still grow at a faster pace than any other industrial/post-industrial society.
Just a note of interest there.

Another sidenote:
I have a good friend and co-worker, a Frenchman who has been in the States for three years. I have, of course, been avoiding political chit/chat with this fellow recently for obvious reasons.
Yesterday however we finally got into a political chat. He amazed me when he said that the French Government and most French people, deep down inside,agreed with the U.S. policy in Iraq. I was stunned and then asked why the French then were not joining the alliance? He said that it was important for the French to be contrary to the Great Superpower America so that Americans don't get too arrogant. He also said that if it were a Democratic , more politically progressive President like Clinton or Gore, or even a progressive, maverick Republican like John McCain, that the French might have gone along . He said that the French just can't stand Bush and his stances on the environment or his arrogance on this terrorist/war circumstance. He then said of course France knows America will win the war and that Saddam is a terrible man and it will be good to see him go, and indeed the French will help with the rebuilding of Iraq and look to make money on the rebuilding.

I thought this Frenchman's ideas were very intriguing.


Posted By: uzma
Date Posted: March 27 2003 at 1:48pm
Lady Maria

I appreciate your astute observations and respect your point of view as much as I disagree with it.
I am not here to entertain you, so if you find my opinions boring – so be it.

Yes – 40% or so of the UN consists of countries ruled by dictators.
Secular democracy is not universally respected or desired. For most of history, dictatorship or monarchy has been the status quo.
However, the UN is based on the principle of democracy i.e that all countries in the world have representation and an equal vote. I didn’t and don’t like the way the UN (or the Arab League for that matter) operate. I think they are pretty useless talk-shops. The principle is good but the practice is flawed.
If Bush is going to go from country to country on his openly expansionist mission, is this not the act of a dictator? He is not asking the people what they want – he is telling them that they need liberation, democracy etc. I agree that Saddam and his regime need to be ousted, but we (US & UK) grew this monster and allowed him to impoverish his once wealthy country with the help of our sanctions.
Now we go into Iraq in order to liberate the Iraqis from the dictator we installed and the sanctions we implemented. I just can't bear the hypocrisy.
As you say, the war will go on, etc. I am not sure that the US will win in the longer run.
The Muslims really – and I can’t put this strongly enough – we really will not tolerate rule by the US.
I predict that although the weak rulers of various Arab countries will lie down and let Bush walk in, the population will resist and fight to the death against US control of their homelands. Myself included. Proud to do so.
In the news today, the US, UK and UN discussed the task of governing Iraq after the war is over. Kofi Annan wanted the UN to take control and oversee democratic elections. In response, Colin Powell was quoted as saying; “We didn’t take on this huge burden with our partners not to be able to have a significant dominating control.” (Daily Mirror, London, 27th March, Page 2).
This and other comments are openly dictatorial. Openly power-hungry.

Also, the humanitarian façade falls apart.
The British Chamber of Commerce is breathing fire over the lack of contracts for the re-construction of Iraq. Non-US companies have not been allowed to bid for any of these countries. We could understand how other countries were out of the running, but the UK? Your allies? The politicians and corporate CEOs keep reiterating that they want a proportion of those contracts which will pay them via oil revenue.
In other words, the Iraqi oil will be used to pay the people who destroy Iraq, to re-build Iraq. And who decides how much it will all cost? The controlling government. And who will that be? The US.
Another nice, tidy loop. Very clever. Very, very, bad. Not a strategy designed to win hearts and minds of the world who is watching every move in this war, let alone the Iraqi people.
Can you imagine if your child had been killed by an enemy bomb and then those very people became your government and had a strong presence “re-building” your country for years. And they called themselves liberators. How could you stand it?
If this was truly a humanitarian mission, than – even if the US maintained control until a democratic government was installed – let the Iraqis re-build their own country. They built in in the first place. Let them keep their oil revenues circulating in the country with the people.
No – Bush is going to funnel it away.

Melba
You seem to think that Muslims and Arabs are against Blacks. A lot of blacks are Muslims – not only in North/West Africa, but also in the Carribean and in the US. All Muslims of all races stand together as we are commanded to do – regardless of race or origin. Any who don’t aren’t Muslims.
You also appear to be very class conscious. The impression I get is that you feel that these groups are putting you down. I have experienced discrimination because of my class (not upper!!) and blatant racism with people calling me names both as an adult and as a child, in Britain.
However, I never thought all white people or all upper class people were racist and classist. I reached out my hand to everyone to try and understand their point of view and confront their fears and ignorance. I made friends, opened dialogue and found a way to co-exist happily with people who would rather I be obliterated from the face of the earth on the one hand, and who want to take me to the movies and have dinner at their houses, on the other. I live with this confusion daily (hehehe).
Anyway, there appears to be a culture clash. If a stranger says “Hi” to me, especially a male stranger, I do not respond. I look away and walk away. This is religious and cultural. It is nothing to do with being stuck-up or disliking you personally. Also, non-Muslim blacks are – rightly or wrongly – perceived as being more aggressive and violent, due to gang culture in the US and UK. Arabs and Muslims try and protect themselves from this perceived threat. Sorry if any of this causes you offense, but I have to tell it like it is.
Last year, a gang of non-Muslim blacks had attacked and robbed some Asian Muslim shops. A Muslim man was killed. A contingent of Black Muslims from the community mosque silently organised themselves into a contingent, found the responsible parties and taught them a lesson. We take care of our own. We have to in a society that doesn't undestand us, doesn't want to understand us, and expects us to follow their ways (which are against our religion) to demonstrate our "respect" for them. We have had no trouble since.

Brent
I too am intruiged by what your French colleague said, but find Chirac’s decision to go against the US totally baffling. I just can’t figure it out. Anyone care to suggest a plausible explanation?

Alice
I totally understand and support your reservations about the obvious absence of justice, but this of course, goes for both sides in this war.
I sincerely hope your brother is returned to you un-harmed, but IF Saddam’s regime is eliminated, IF the US/UK leave the Iraqi people to determine their own future and IF this war accelerates the implementation of an independent Palestinian state – and hence a more peaceful Middle-East (and world) – than NO solider from either side has died in vain.

Lets join our hearts together in peace, patience and prayer.


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Uzi



Posted By: Unregistered Guest
Date Posted: March 27 2003 at 9:48pm
Uzma:

Yes there is an explanation for Chirac's behaviour in rejecting theU.S./U.K. position. Not only by tradition do the French have to be contrary to the Americans and the British, but I have been informed that there is an actual law in France that whatever position the U.S./U.K. takes on an issue the French have to take the opposite view. If Bush/Blair had opposed a war in Iraq, there is no doubt the French would be marching with their tri-colored flag flying in the sandstorms into Baghdad at this moment. After all, the French are hardly opposed to using their military. Every time you blink the French army is in another French-speaking black African country, either cleaning up, or creating, another mess.

As I mentioned before Uzma, after all of this is over I am convinced that the Arab world and the American world are going to be closer than before. I am serious when I say that Americans have more in common with Arabs, despite our different religions, than with the liberal agnostic western Europeans. America is without a doubt a conservative, traditional, religious, family orientated society in comparison to our west European friends. In these respects we are much like the Arabs. Even the fight being put up by the Iraqis is admired in America. Countries that aren't willing to work hard and fight hard, Americans don't respect.
Why after the second world war did America become much closer to Germany than the French, even though we bitterly fought the Germans. The Germans were seen as more conservative, more traditional and tougher than the French. That is they were perceived as having heart and guts. True there are 50 million German surnames in the U.S., and only 10 million French surnames but that had nothing to do with it.
I personally have great admiration for Arabs and Arab culture. The great architecture, particullarily the mosques, the tradition of philosophy,literature and poetry(Kahil Gibran anyone), the food( the hamburger has nothing on the Felafil), and most of all the beauty of Arab Muslim women. Such feminine and traditional women are so appealing to me, and I think many American men. Muslim women are beautiful without the long dress and headscarf, and just as beautiful with the long dress and headscarf. The headscarved Muslim woman to me doesn't reprsent a fanatic, rather a lovely, feminine, fashionable, beautiful, modest woman! I notice too how many different styles and colors of head scarves and dresses the Muslim women wear. They are actually very chic in thier different traditional yet also modern styles of Muslim clothing. Indeed some non-Muslim American women admire the tradional feminine look of Muslim women, my wife being one of them.
I am a man who is Christian. My ex-wife and three kids are also Christian but I am presently married to a Chinese-American Buddhist woman(inter-racial and inter-religious marriage. But after all we live in the liberal San Francisco Bay area, ).

I know of American Christian men who have married Muslim women, including Muslim women who wear the headscarf, the increasing inter-religious marriages have been well publsized in the American press(3% of American marriages are now inter-religious). Usually when these inter-religious marriages occur the children are raised in the faith of the mother. Since there are more American Christian men marrying Buddhist and Muslim women than before, you have, I believe, a growing inter-religious tolerance. This can only be a good thing.
Muslim women are adorable. Bless you Uzma and may we have peace very soon. I would love to take my wife on a vacation to the Mid-East sometime and meet the wonderful Arab people there. Oh and yes, my wife does sometimes wear a headscarf, she just loves the look and feel of it, and she looks wonderful!!


Posted By: IRIS
Date Posted: March 27 2003 at 10:42pm
I feel like a lot of reply's posted are attacking Uzma, she is obviously an intelligent woman. And she is is not saying she dislikes Americans. I love being American as much as anyone. Although there are horrible things that are American political leaders do that we don't know about. Or the truth is twisted. We have to realize that our country has done some terrible things in the past just to stay the most powerful country. And if you support freedom of speech then you would not attack uzma or anyone for that matter that has a different opinion ther than yours.

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Posted By: Lady Maria
Date Posted: March 27 2003 at 11:02pm
Wow Brent! That was really beautiful what you wrote to uzma! You are really a sweet guy!


I know there are more inter- religious marriages in America now, I've noticed that too. I know an Iranian Muslim women, and she is a really nice person, who is married to a European-American Christian guy. They live in my neighborhood, two houses down from me, and I have talked with them, especially her, a number of times.

I don't know what religion they are raising their 3 year old daughter, but this neighbor lady usually wears her headscarf and sometimes she has her little daughter wear a longer dress and a little headscarf too, and the little girl is such a doll! She is just adorable!

I love the look of a headscarf too. I sometimes wear a silk or chiffon neck scarf and when I had long hair I used to sometimes tie my hair back in a ponytail with a scarf. I do, once in a while, wear a headscarf too, especially now since my hair is so short. I really do like the look!
Whether for religious, cultural or fashion reasons, headscarves are very feminine!

Uzma, this war I hope you know, is not the Crusades. We are not fighting Muslims, we are fighting the Iraqi regime. Like Brent said, many American admire Muslims. And he is right, the traditional and religious nature of Muslim society is very compatible with America, we are like that too. I hope too we have closer relations with the Arabs after the war. I would love that!

Here in America Uzma, Arab- Muslims are being very upfront and vocal that they are as patriotic as other Americans. Muslim leaders point out, correctly, that Muslim-Americans have fought in every war that America has been in, including W.W.I, W.W.II, the Korean War, the Vietnam War, and the first Persian Gulf war, as well as the present war. Like other Americans of all ethnic groups and religions, Muslims have fought against German Christians, Japanese Buddhists, Vietnamese Athiest Communists, and Arab Muslims.
Just as German-American Christians fought in large numbers against the Germans in W.W.II, and Japanese-American Buddhists fought against Buddhists, so Muslim-Americans fight against fellow Muslims if the war is againgst a mostly Muslim country like Iraq.
You see at "Support the Troops" rallies in America, Muslim women with headscarves waving the American flag, Muslim-American men who give speeches concerning the many Arab-Muslim men who are serving in the American army, it really is very important to the American Muslim community to be viewed as patriotic, and they are patriotic! If you accuse a Muslim of not being patriotic, Muslims get angry and point out the many Muslims who have served, and are serving, in the American military. I heard an Arab man on the radio yesterday on NPR talking about just this subject. He himself was an older man who had fought the Germans in W.W.II. His grandson is over in Iraq right now.

To Americans Uzma, this IS NOT the Crusades or a conflict between Christan-Americans and Arab-Muslims. I know the Christian bigots, like your "National Front" types would like to make it a religious war, as would bigoted Muslim "Holy War" types,a clash of civilizations of sorts, but to the vast majority of Christian AND Muslim Americans this war is not about religion. And that Uzma is the truth of how we feel. And most Arab-Americans agree with me on that. They are patriotic and brave people.

Also Uzma it is not a question of America "winning "the war in the short run or the long run. The world is too big for any country, including a Superpower, to control. America can't even control our neighbors in Latin America. They vote in anti-American governments as often as pro-American governments, and the Latin American countries do plenty of business with us, they also often do business with West Europe and Japan.

And these big corporations are multi-nationals now, with the money going everywhere. Even a corporation based in ,let's say Germany, may have major stockholders who are wealthy Arabs, French, or British. An American corporation may have major stockholders who are Japanese, Brazilian or Dutch. Jobs and money go everywhere, and money and jobs move around all the time from country to country. No one "wins" or "controls" everything nowadays, it is more complex than that. In the future we will be even more interconnected. The international economy just goes. It is bigger than any one country or group of politicians.

It is also true that in the past most people lived under Monarchies or dictatorships as you say. But just because something happened in the past doesn't always make it good. Such things as widow burning, human sacrifice, cannibalism, and women not being allowed to work outside of the homewas also in the past. Should we go back to that?

If dictatorships are benevolent some dictatorships will probably survive. The problem is they rarely are. In a democracy the powerful and wealthy still have the most clout of course, they do under any system,but they have less clout than in a dictatorship, because in a democracy there is relatively more citizen input and elections. We can kick the Bush or Blair administration out. (I hope we kick out Bush, if I was British I would vote for Blair however, I think he is smarter than Bush and better on environmental issuesand other issues). I could be wrong, any of us could ,but I just don't think dictatorships will last, even in the Muslim world. I think we are past the "tipping point" on that. Look at the huge pro-democracy protests in Iran. And they were having them in China too until the military gunned down the protestors in Tinanamen Square.
But democracy will come to China once they get a big enough middle class, just as elections came to South Korea, Latin America, South Africa and East Europe.

Like Brent, I wish you the best Uzma and I really do hope Muslims and Christians can have a great future together!





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Lady Maria


Posted By: uzma
Date Posted: March 28 2003 at 1:56am
Brent

Thank you for your insights and explanations. I hope this Mid-East situation does resolve itself and you and your family can holiday in Arabia.
Your thoughts about muslim culture are lovely. Thanks for sharing them.

Lady Maria

I have been thinking deeply about everything you have said, and I have to say that if dictatorships are to be toppled by democracy in the muslim world as a first step towards our theocratic ideal, then so be it. There is too much injustice and brutality in the world and perhaps democracy will act to resolve that. As someone who lived in democratic Pakistan for 7 years - I have my reservations. It doesn't fit with the nature of the people.

I am grateful for your reassurance that Americans do not see this as a crusade. Many muslims think it is and that is backed up by the increasing antagonism we face every day. But we don't have a victim mentality. We have our faith and we are tough (and argumentative).
If at the end of this war, the Americans and the Arabs have astronger and more positive relationship, than I will be holidaying in Miami with my family. With a BIG smile on my face.
I hope that happens.

Iris

Thank you for your support.
Discussions like these are great for kicking around ideas and getting to know the opposite views to your own. I have really enjoyed this thread, even if it's mostly been pretty negative.
My best wishes to you.

Love to you all.


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Uzi



Posted By: Unregistered Guest
Date Posted: March 28 2003 at 8:41am
Uzma and Maria:

The war may be negative but you ladies are certainly not. You are both delightful and very bright.

I can appreciate and approve of your optimistic view on democracy Maria but two things have to happen for a democracy to be sucessfull.

1. At least a somewhat decent and diverse economy, and diversity is very important. If one industry goes down you need other industries to pick up the slack. Diversity also leads to a more educated workforce which just about automatically lends itself to a more tolerant, just, and prosperous society.
2. The people have to really want democracy and this is the most important thing.

In Taiwan and South Korea they developed the economy first, then went democratic and the people were ready for democracy and it works.
Democracy is holding in Latin America not because Latin America is so developed economically, although there have been improvements, but they just can't stand going back to the days of horrid military dictatorships with the "dirty wars" the "disappeared persons", the bloody suppression of workers groups,etc., etc.. Even in bad economic times democracy wins there because they don't want the alternative again.
In most parts of former Communist central Europe, places like Poland or the Czech Republic , democracy is working and their economy is slowly improving and they alllways wanted democracy in those places. In India democracy wins by default, not that it works so well. But what kind of dictatorship or authoritarian rule would India go to? A Communist State? Not India's style. A military dictatorship like Pakistan? Not India's style either. A Hindu religious state? Wouldn't work, too many Muslims there. A monarchy? Who would be the monarch? A state run by a Gandhi-like holy man? A "cult of personality" state? The holy men aren't tough enough or practical enough. So democracy wins by default in India.
Russia and the old Soviet Republics are a different story. As of yet democracy isn't working. The economy is a wreck, partially because gangsters and organized crime run virtually everything there, not just some things like in the U.S. or most other countries with many criminals. It is hard to run a sucessful business when the local Mafia is demanding a large piece of your profits. Hard to get foreign investment when a man with a gun pays you a visit and says pay up or you are dead.
The Russians and the other Republics were not economically developed and didn't know much about running a reasonably honest democracy, unlike some of the Central Europeans. The gangsters took over quick, more than anywhere else I can think of. I think the Russians would like an honest democracy but it might be too late, millions of the best and brightest Russians and people from the other Republics have allready left and gone to west Europe, North America, even Australia and South America. Not much left in Russia but the very poor, the very drunk and the very criminal. Hard to build a great country when most of your best young adults are leaving.
Democracy didn't work in Pakistan Uzma because the economy was horrible and not very diverse and not much of a middle class and enormous poverty. Maybe the people weren't ready for it either, they were lukewarm on it. If democracy does suceed in places like Russia and Pakistan it will probably be like Latin America. The people will simply get so sick and tired of rule by authoritarians or gangsters that they will demand, and somehow some way ,get, something democratic.
One place that does want democracy is Iran. The religious clerics don't know anything about running an economy and made the country much poorer and more frustrated, overuled every economically and socially progressive idea the elected Parliment ever had, and oppressed the people to the point where in their private lives they are totally disobeying the clerics and in public have staged numerous huge protests.
It wouldn't take much of a push to create a democracy in Iran.

Thanks for your delightful and intelligent writngs ladies. Have a very nice day and evening.


Posted By: Lady Maria
Date Posted: March 28 2003 at 8:13pm
Very interesting Brent. Great analysis of these countries.

Thanks Uzma and Brent!

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Lady Maria


Posted By: Sophie
Date Posted: March 28 2003 at 8:33pm
BROVO!!!!...all of you.! I Love reading all of you.



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Sophie
http://salonwest.proboards34.com - http://salonwest.proboards34.com


Posted By: Vineman
Date Posted: April 12 2003 at 5:35pm
The Vietnam war sucked, Communism is no worse than Capitalism in theory it's just the greedy rich American governemnt brainwashed everyone into thinking communism is evil. Maybe it has been used for evil, but so has captialism.

Anyway, all existing systems sucks, someone with more than half a braincell needs to think up something better.


Posted By: Lady Maria
Date Posted: April 12 2003 at 7:59pm
The problem with Communism is that it became totalitarian almost everywhere, therefore anti-democractic and with a terrible human rights record.
It is estimated that Communist governments killed at least 50 million of their citizens, mostly political dissidents or opposing political groups, or ethnic minorities like the Tibetans in China or the Ukrainians in the Soviet Union when it was ruled by Stalin. The old Soviet Union killed at least 15 million, China over 20 million.
Capitalism of course can be totalitarian as well and indeed have had brutal dictators especially in Latin America. Today though, most of the Capitalist countries(which is most of the world now) is democratic.
The main reason that Communism fell though was it's inefficency, it simply could not deliver goods and services to it's people in a way that created a decent standard of living, it collapsed at least to some degree of it's own weight, not only in the Soviet Union but almost everywhere. Even China today has more jobs in the private sector(that is to say Capitalism) than in the Government sector.


There is no ideal system. A system is only as good as the people who run it.

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Lady Maria


Posted By: Lady Maria
Date Posted: April 12 2003 at 8:00pm
The other problem with Communism was that it not only banned other political parties and democracy, but it banned religion and freedom of the press and the arts.
That was another reason it collapsed. People couldn't tolerate the oppression of it.

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Lady Maria


Posted By: Brent
Date Posted: April 12 2003 at 9:39pm
It goes without saying that communism had a horrific human rights record.
Over and above any human rifgts concerns the fact is communism failed and has largely gone by the wayside because it didn't work. It just didn't work.

That's not surprising given that the economy was handed over to government bureaucrats, political hacks who didn't really know how to run an economy. The so called "Dictatorship of the Proletariat" were just incompetant ideological thugs without a clue how to run a viable economy.It never worked. In fact throughout the Cold war even when the U.S.A. was fighting communists we were also feeding them. Without American grain and other foodstuffs, often donated by the U.S. government who bought it from American farmers, the old Soviet Union would have faced mass starvation on numerous occasions as their Communist run agricultural sector failed miserably.

What the Communists never understood is there has to be competetion to bring out the best in people in any given occupation, profession or business. Without it it just becomes a matter of political appointments as opposed to quality.
The old saying under communism, a cynical saying by communist workers was,"We pretend to work, and the communists pretend to pay us". Nothing got done right. The whole thing just got more and more inefficent and bogged down until it fell apart.

Capitalism at it's worst can be brutal. Competetion in general can be brutal. But it does work. It creates a much better standard of living for society, because outcomes are based on hard work, creativity and productivity, that is to say quality instead of a contrived, controlled government sector.Even the "workers", that is the working and blue collar classes, usually lived better under capitalism than under communism, assuming of course some progessivity in government to cushion the harhser blows of capitalism and to assist the natural dynamic and creativity of the private sector.


Posted By: Brent
Date Posted: April 12 2003 at 10:10pm
People:

Have you noticed how this post started as a salute to our(American/British) men and women in uniform, a "Support Our Troops" posting, and it has grown into philisophical, religious, and political discourses...... Nothing operates in a vacum does it.

.....What do this have to do with hair. Let me make a connection:_____all political, religious and philosophical people have hair(unless they are bald). So there.__ There we finally have a connection!


______Have a good weekend.


Posted By: Sophie
Date Posted: April 14 2003 at 9:46am
Lady Maria..Vineman...Brent....I loved reading you as usual.

I'm really enjoying this Political and Philosophical side to everyone..............

Hey, do you guy's post on any sites that are more dedicated to Philosophy or the like?

I would enjoy further reading in this area. ??? any suggestions??

Thank's.

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Sophie
http://salonwest.proboards34.com - http://salonwest.proboards34.com


Posted By: Lady Maria
Date Posted: April 14 2003 at 10:46pm
No Sophie I don't post on any political or philosophy websites.

I'm not a philosopher but I do follow politics, but just as an ordinary citizen would.

I do have my political beliefs and opinions, I'm sure you can tell that!


I consider myself pretty practical and moderate in my politics. So is the man I'm marrying, we have similar poltical and social views, we are pretty compatible with that stuff. Which makes it easy on both of us. I don't mind discussing politics once in a while but I don't like arguing about it that much.


This thread really has been interesting hasn't it!

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Lady Maria


Posted By: uzma
Date Posted: April 15 2003 at 3:59pm
Hi Sophie

You might want to check out the following site:

http://forum.darwinawards.com/ - http://forum.darwinawards.com/
http:// -

I hope Karen Shelton starts a Friendship Board so that we can express our non-hair related thoughts and ideas in a dedicated forum.

Cheers

Uzma

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Uzi



Posted By: Sophie
Date Posted: April 15 2003 at 7:26pm
This thread has been interesting, LM. Thank's to all of you.

Uzma, thank you so much for that link....Wow, I will have some interesting reading for quite a while to come......It may be way above my head, but I will love reading it. Thanks again.

The friendship board sounds really great too.

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Sophie
http://salonwest.proboards34.com - http://salonwest.proboards34.com



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