Leia...quite genius! Not wacky at all girl! I have been following this thread and find it interesting but have to admit, its WAY over my head. But when you start talking crockpots...now your taking something I can understand! LOL
Leia~ I asked him to give me the lease about of chemicals needed that could be used to acheive a similar result.
STS~Thanks Girl........just what we need!! You are officially recruited as the chemist!!HAHA
The only problem I see with this is the temperature controlled baths over 15- 20 days.~shaking~thing~?!! Although he aways refers to a much shorter process when he responds. I have told him twice we are doing it over a longer period of time. Those tubs that GL uses looks like they may be temperature controlled but I don't know about the ~shaking~. GL also say, they use a similar process for treating cashmere, not exact. So, maybe the tubs are heat controlled but no shaking. Or maybe they don't even heat the tubs, I have a feeling they do though???~the mind boggles~
I am going to do a search and see if I can find a piece of equipment that can achieve this. I can't think of anything off hand right now. If you girls think of something to acheive a controlled heat over 15-20 days......let me know.
If all else fails, I can just try the listed chemicals as is in cold water.
Thanks again for all your input!!
darthmom
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Mordanting: 6-10 grams of Iron Sulfate per litre of water 4-6 grams of Phosphoric Acid per litre of water however much Formic Acid it takes to make the pH between 3 and 3.5
Bleaching: 10 grams Tetrasodium Pyrophosphate per litre of water Hydrogen Peroxide (the lesser the volume, the longer it takes) however much Ammonia it takes to make the pH between 8 and 8.5
This time we're down to only 4 chemicals that may or may not be readily available.
Save~A~Stray
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This was the response I just got from the same company.......
The depigmentation process consisted of a mordanting step followed by a bleching step and was carried out at the following experimental conditions:
Mordanting
-FeSO4: 6-10 g/l
-H3PO2 :4-6 g/l
-HCO2H ( formic acid) take to pH 3-3.5
-Treatment time: 60 minutes
-Material -to Liquor ratio: 1:20-1:50
At the end of the treatment, hair were rinsed with warm water ( no distilled) for 20 minutes and then with cold water for 20 minutes.
Bleaching
Na4P2O7: 10 g/l
H2O2: 1-8 vol
Material -to Liquor ratio: 1:20-1:50
pH: 8-8.5 with NH4OH ( ammonia)
60 minutes at 70�C
At the end of the treatment, hair were rinsed with cold water for 10 minutes.
Notes
Different concentrations of hydrogen peroxide can be tested.
If you reduced the concentration of hydrogen peroxide you can increase the treatment time. For cashmere 15 days of treatment is a very long time. It is not a good time for industrial treatment.
I suggest you to use a thermostatically controlled shaking water bath or you have to shaking the sample treated. You have to check the temperature and you have to keep the sample closed.
There are analytical test to assest the damage of the sample ( cashmere, hair) after the depigmentation. They are: spectroscopic determination of cysteic acid and visual evaluation of damage by optical microscopy Our laboratory is specialized in test cited above and in depigmantation treatment.
We have experience in cashmere dyeing and we have not experience about human hair dyeing.
Kind Regards
Raffaella and Marina
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I e-mailed him back and thanked him for his very detailed process. I reminded him I was conducting the test over a 15-20 day period and could he give me the breakdown of the solutions for a longer process. He seems a really nice person. He said I could contact him anytime with questions. So let's see what he comes back with for us little scientists and of course Professor Leia here!! Thanks again for another great explanation. I may need you to breakdown his next response.
Gina~ I look forward to checking out those lines especially that you can convert between the two. Just what I need!! Once I did extensions that was it for me, that's all I wanted to do. You get very hooked!! Great your an all rounder!! Your client doesn't need to go anywhere else...you offer it all.
Okay, I've read one article Save A Stray sent, and scanned the other. It looks like they used a similar process in both cases. Here's the basic rundown on how it works:
The fiber (hair, wool, whatever) soaks in a heated solution containing a from of Iron (Fe). The iron molecules bond really well to melanin (dark pigment) and not so well to keratin. The fiber is then rinsed in warm water for 20 minutes, then room-temperature water for another 20 minutes. The rinsing destroys the iron-keratin bond, but doesn't affect the iron-melanin bond. The fiber then goes into a heated solution containing hydrogen peroxide. The hydrogen peroxide only attacks the melanin which is bonded to the iron, while the keratin is pretty much left alone. This process allows the melanin in the fiber to be removed without causing much harm to the keratin.
It seems that this particular process only takes about three hours, not several weeks.
So, now I kinda understand how....the issue is how do we replicate it. We may also be able to find a similar recipe using more readily available chemicals.
Oh, and if what I wrote doesn't make much sense, then just ask me lots n lots of questions.
S~A~S... Wella is easy to come by. It's VERY easy to formulate. Love their demi-permanents, HATE their permanent line. Davines isn't mainstream. The company is well established; but you can only find it at select salons.( I booth rent and have a distributer) Davines is like the Cadilac of color. The texture of the product and the result in regards to the integrity of hair is incomparable to any thing I've ever used. (Same goes for the products) Both Wella and Dav. follow the same number system (ie 7/72, 8/04) because their both european. So, it was easy for me to convert. The only thing that threw me off with Dav. is that you weigh it on digitals! I LOVE color... the more you have to offer your clients, the broader your knowledge as a stylist the more you can create and offer...and EARN$!!!!!! That's why I am soaking up all I can learn to now add extensionist to my resume
I don't work in a salon anymore, that's why I have been out of the loop. I am involved in animal rescue now but just love doing hair extensions. I still have a valid New York state license and in the process of waiting for state board testing in CA. I want to start learning one line for now just so I don't confuse the heck out of myself!! Davines....I will check out!! What other lines do you like?
Gina~Yeah, I'm pretty bummed I never got to do color. I have a subscription to the Process magazine and it's really kewl. I'm learning a lot from it. I will go on a coloring course later this year so I can get a handle on it. I've heard lots about Wella color!!
Ohhhhhhh SNAP!!!! Look at the brain on Leia!!! You are amazing! I never could grasp chemistry. Yeah...Fermaldihide? Can you even legally obtain that? My sister is an imbomer... I think it's some sort of controlled substance-its carcenagenic. Save~a~Stray.... Hate to hear you had to choose. I love both! (Wella makes a 1.9% which is wonderful,creamy,and gentle.)
Hehe, you ladies crack me up. I plugged a lot of the formulas into Yahoo. Trust me, I didn't know that humongous one (EDTA) off the top of my head! Anyway, I'm not sure how easy it'll be to get some of these chemicals...who knows. I just know that you add x number of grams per litre of distilled water (that's pure H2O) to get the solutions they used.
Save A Stray, you can forward the emails to me if you like to leia1979 at comcast.net. I'll see if I can make heads or tails out of it. I need to dig my college chem book out of the attic.
And did anyone else think "Ewwww" when they read formaldehyde was included?
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No Kiddin' Jenny!! I'm still reacting to Leia's post!!!!!
Leia~ I should send you the actual papers, because I just cut and pasted this part and it all mushed together. It was set up in 3 different columns. You may be able to see more clearly the exact process. Although you had no trouble translating the mumbo jumbo!!!Haha. Their test was not done over 15-20 days though. Which we (OR SHOULD I SAY LEIA)will have to figure out the ratios for that slower process. Let me know Leia, if I can send them to you......
I got another response today from another company that had no idea of this process. They referred me to someone else in Italy, but I had already contacted them. They told me this company has the trade secret on de-pigmentation, thats why they are so successful. He said good luck with getting the answer from them!!
Damn, girls! We're gonna have to start calling you "Professors Leia and Gina" and "Mix-master Save~A~Stray" soon. I'm very impressed. We'll be manufacturing our own hair in no time! :)
OMG!! Leia, you are one smart cookie if you got all that from my post!! You must have been top of your class girl!!!
Gina~ thanks for the breakdown, I would have had to go look that up in my books.
When I graduated cosmetology school in 1987, I went to work in London, and I had to choose cutting or coloring. They wouldn't let me choose both, so I went with cutting. Every shop I worked in afterwards was like that too. So I am a little rusty when it comes to the coloring side and the peroxide vols.
Appreciate all the translations!! Kalika~I'm with you ...I was like ......HUH?!! Leia~ I still can't believe you girl.......!!!!!
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Okay, I printed it out, and here's my preliminary translation (I'll double check it at work and post when I get home this evening).
3.7 grams of Iron Sulfate per litre of water 1 gram Sodium Hydrosulfite per litre of water 3 grams Formaldehyde per liter of water some sort of ratio (not sure what they're referring to) of between 1:20 and 1:50
with this solution, they got a pH of 3 (acid) it soaked for one hour in the solution at 85 degrees C 20 minutes warm water bath 20 minutes room-temp water bath
10 grams Tetrasodium Diphosphate per litre of water 2 grams Ethylenediaminetetraacetic Acid (EDTA) per litre of water 1-8 volumes of Hydrogen Peroxide (they did several mixtures using the the above two ingredients and varying strengths of Hydrogen Peroxide)
that same ratio of something I don't know between 1 to 20 and 1 to 50 pH of this solution is 9 (slightly alkaline) 30 minutes in this solution at 85 degrees C and so on
A whole lotta chemicals, at any rate. Who wants to break into the chem lab with me??? =)
Edited to qualify: While I excelled at General Chemistry in college, I didn't go beyond that and majored in music instead.
Oh, and I think the ratio is the amount of fibre (or hair, in our case) to liquid. Between 20 and 50 parts liquid per part of hair.
Damn...I should have payed more attention in chemistry! I guess low volume peroxide is where it's at although it does look like they used heat. I read RC had mentioned "changing the baths" I think that is a very crucial pint. Peroxide looses its strength if left open. If this helps I can tell you a little about making different volumes: 20 Vol=6%,10vol=3%,5vol=1.5%,2.5vol=.75% Does that help or am I just rambling?
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