my parents hate my long hair

Princessa - I totally agree with and support your view-point, as I support Prettyboi in his right to determine his own appearance.

We are all dependent (except the very rich) - initially on family and subsequently on employers, partners, etc.
I cannot understand why people think that financial dependence means giving up your personal self-determinism.

I have seen long-haired men (and women) experience discrimination, insults and abuse in the work-place purely because their appearance did not conform to the corporations idea of acceptability. This is hurtful and disrespectful.

The act of cultivating long hair, as a previous poster said, does not hurt anyone.
I also think that there are too many of us who have been subject to the irrational and prejudical biases of those who hold financial/emotional power over us - the scars are real and deep.

For people to suggest that imposing restrictions on the development of identity (and let's be serious - this is what is going on here) is a healthy way to nurture children, is pure bull.
Prettyboi is not asking permission to do drugs or carry a gun.
It is not brattish or manipulative for a teenager to experiment and make choices through trial and error.

Parents should respect this process, if their kids are to enter adulthood as confident individuals with a strong understanding of who they are.

Also, as Dave said, please let's not resort to insults. Offending and judging others is destructive and there is too much of that in the real world without having to deal with it on these boards - they are for "support" after all.....

Take care

Uzma

People:
I would like to ask all of you people who have written on this thread a question--- How many of you have kids?
---I don't know any of you other than what I can glean from your writings, but my guess is that none of you have kids; certainly not teenage kids.

I get a kick out of people that talk about "freedom" for kids and how us parents have to be "sensitive" to kids and let our 14 year olds dye their hair purple, get tattoos, get eyebrow and lip piercings, and so forth. Ask any school principal or social worker or cop that works with teenagers, they will tell you that the kids that are allowed to look or dress however they like are usually, with some exceptions, also the kids who take drugs, hang out with the wrong crowd, end up getting pregnant at 15, or going to jail, or heaven forbid, die of a drug overdose or get involved with guns. The type of kids at Columbine who shot up their school were spoiled kids allowed to dress how they liked by their "liberal" parents, they were so typical of that type of liberal mindset. The kids who join street gangs, and I don't just mean poor inner city kids, sure they dress and wear their hair however they like. These are the "Dead End Kids", social misfits, the kids who end up in psych wards, chemical dependency treatment centers, sometimes in prison or the morque.
Uzma, you of all people should know this. Why do you think traditional societies like the Arabs or the Chinese are so suspicious of too much Western "freedom" for children and teenagers.
Children are supposed to be disciplined and denied some freedom to some degree. Yes we allow them to make their own decisions unless they are making the wrong decisions or decisions that will have them catergorized as misfits. If they develop an image as a loser, a misfit, an indulged spoiled little brat, they gravitate into that sort of bad behaviour. Don't take my word for it, ask any responsible,(and I don't mean liberal elitist) social worker, shrink, or cop.
The worse thing you can ever do with a kid is be too "sensitive" to the kid. Much too much of that in modern Western society in recent decades. It doesn't serve us well.

Somewhere between the extreme of Western liberalism and religious, conservative, Fundamentalism in some social circles and countries, is a balanced, rational way to raise children. With adults it is different, we are living in a free society, adults in free countries have a bit more leeway, but children need a balance and you don't get it with the Western "liberals", that's for sure.

You people have a few kids then tell me about it. You will find out your liberal idealism and indulging your kids isn't in their, or society's, best interest.


Maria:- Don't offer any apology to this "Princessa" or whatever this teenaged overindulged girl calls herself. Kids who are fourteen don't need purple or pink hair, and I doubt she is an honor student but even if she is I would have grounded her without television, computer use(other than for school) or other privledges for a month for lying and as you say manipulating. And if she wants to purposely fail at school, let her fail for a while and let her learn the hard way where it gets her.She is a blatant case of a kid playing on "liberal, sensitive" parents. A fourteen year old doesn't know much, neither do these "liberal" adults.
--- Ask the counselors at the treatment centers or the social workers and the cops at juvey hall. Liberalism doesn't work. Extreme conservatism doesn't work either but that's the problem of traditional countries , not so much the Western nations. Our biggest problem are the so called "liberals".

Brent and Uzma,

I respect both of you.
Both of you are two of the most intelligent people who write here.
I don't think the liberals are as bad as you are making them out to be Brent,and I don't think the liberals are as good as you are making them out to be Uzma.

Not all liberals are misfits or spoiled brats Brent ,some are just eccentric idealists who are bascially good and responsible people and you need some idealists and even some eccentrics in society, Brent.
That isn't necessarily bad for society.

Some of the liberal types really are airheads though Uzma.
And while many liberals are responsible and grownup in their behavior and ideals, some are misfits or don't know how the "real" world",(business,economics, politics, the military,etc) works. And some are too leniant with children and spoil them.
It's like the anti-war protestors or environmental protestors. Some are sincere, educated, rational people who respect others who disagree with them,and they know how politics and business work. But some are immature and spoiled and intolerant of conservatives and don't know how the world really works, they couldn't run a popscicle stand if their life depended on it. I have met both types of liberals, and the immature ones aren't always young, some are older.
And if a liberal is truly grownup they have to do more then just say they are for "multi-cultures" or "believe in the environment". Anyone can say that, even some conservatives say that. You have to know how things really work, and that includes the economy, industry, and the military, that also is part of life, politics, and reality.

The same is of course true with Conservatives. They have their good and bad. Some Conservatives are sincere, knowledgable, and moderate and tolerant of other viewpoints and people. Others are extremist and really are oppressive to people and too intolerant of other views and not good for society.

It probably isn't good to generalize liberals or conservatives too much. They both have their good and bad points.
But the nice thing is in a democracy that allows freedom, both liberals and conservatives are allowed their viewpoints and allowed to participate in our democracy.
I wouldn't want to live in a country that just had liberals or just had conservatives, you need the better ideas from both.

Having said all that though, getting back to our initial point, by law and by tradition in almost every society, a minor living with his/her parents, does not have the rights or the responsibilities of an adult. And I believe that while it is good to allow the child to experiment to a point, the final say is the parents. That is true not only in conservative countries, it is even true in our more liberal western countries.
When a kid is 18 out working, or on their own in college, then they have the responsibilities AND freedoms of an adult. That IS how the real world works. That is obvious.

Well good Maria and Uzma. we agree that there needs to be different kinds of people and both leftists and rightists have their flaws and good points:
.....just a couple of little things I need to add Uzma.
When I was talking about liberals, my real beef is with the liberal elites. You know the type; the ones who claim solidarity with the working class yet have never done a working class job and who put down the more conservative and religious values that the working class often has. The liberals who are ever- so - tolerant of radical feminists and gays and lesbians but are completely intolerant of conservatives or their beliefs.
What infuriated me the most in college were the kids who were raised in wealthy liberal families who had a very condescending attitude towards those young people of their age who served in the military. I, on a number of occasions , heard these spoiled brats call people in the military "robots" or "murderers" or "fascists". That outraged me. These spoiled kids who never had to do anything difficult in their life had the audacity to put down our blue collar young people who served in the military putting their very life on the line to defend our freedom! As has been mentioned, without our armed forces, Nazis and Communist dictatorships would dominate the world. These liberal elitist brats would not have their freedoms and liberty, nor their parents money, if dictators controlled our nations. Many of these kids were also mindlessly anti-capitalist. So I strongly disagree that children raised in liberal families are more mature and thoughtful than children raised in more conservative environments.
It has been my experience, and I'm early 40s a few years older than you Uzma, that the kids who wore the punk styles when I was a teenager usually did have more trouble in school and with the law. Some of these kids were rebelling against overly strict parents but others were simply allowed to do whatever they wanted by overly liberal parents. Looks do influence how a young person percieves themself, and ask the police or the social workers about this. The kids with the most problems and who are most likely to end up dead, in jail, in drug treatment or preganant at 15 are the ones who look awful, look like punks, and all too often they have been spoiled by leniant parents. This cuts across racial and class lines as well.
The good news is most of the kids who looked terrible and ridiculous outgrew it. But some didn't and ended up dead or addicted to drugs or booze or had other problems that were serious with the law. Some also ended up being bums who spend their life complaining and protesting how terrible conservatives are or how terrible western nations are. That I don't need and it is juvenile behaviour.

I must admit my hair was a little long and I was maybe a little too much into hard rock and heavy metal myself when I was a teenager and a young adult, and I did try pot and drank some beer, but I outgrew it and thankfully never took more dangerous drugs like heroin or cocaine. I was thankfully never overly left wing in my political beliefs either. I never put down people who served in the military and I knew that I wasn't better than people who were more conservative than I was.

I don't like the far right wing either of course, the racists or religious extremists or bigots. I don't trust religious fundamentalists who are intolerant of other religions. I have no problem with conservative, tradional people however. In fact I appreciate them and try to learn from them and install values in my kids that are at least somewhat conservative without being too oppressive.
I am a mixture of liberal and conservative in my social and political beliefs, but I must admit I am much more conservative now, with raising kids and with my politics than I was 20 years ago. That may be a natural progression as well.


Good luck Maria and Uzma. Thank you for your writings, you gals are great!!

Isla,

You are obviously more liberal than Brent although I don't think Brent is ultra-conservative by any means.

I also believe Brent is right, as people get older and have children of their own, they usually become more conservative than they were when they were 22 years old. That happens with most of us and parents want the best for their kids and don't want them to get into trouble. That is human nature. There has to be a balance in all of this.

I'm in my late twenties and getting married soon and hopefully will have kids in the not too distant future and I am more conservative than I was five years ago, although I was never extremely liberal.
I consider myself politically to be a moderate independent. I usually vote for the Democrats but I like some Republicans too(John McCain is one of them).


I really have no problem with kids experimenting with their hair and fashion unless it is too outlandish. There has to be some limits. I certainly don't have a problem with a teenage boy growing his hair long or wearing an earring, or a teenage girl having several earrings or even a nosering, or very short hair, if it's done tastefully.


I'm not thrilled with kids looking trashy however. The funny colored, silly looking, hair; or too many tattoos, or too much makeup or jewelry, or clothing that is too skimpy.

It's fine to have a different look if it is done with some taste and class, that indicates to me individuality, maturity, and self-esteem. There is nothing wrong with differences in appearance.

But at least keep some dignity and class and taste with it, and don't look too silly or like a circus clown, or that is how you will view yourself and others will view you the same! That can't be very good for a kid, or for an adult, for that matter.

PLEASE, A LITTLE CLASS AND GOOD FASHION SENSE!

The singer Pink is a mediocre talent in my opinion. She needed a gimmick. The pink hair was a gimmick and it did get her attention. With a natural hair color she probably didn't have enough talent to have any measure of success. So I guess on that level it worked for her.

99% of the time, im ny opinion, when they color their hair pink, or purple, or green it looks stupid. And they usually have dumb looking makeup and jewelry and too many tattoos to go with it. It looks trashy, just like most of the rap/heavy metal/hip-hop/punk rock music is trashy .

You look at the talented musicians;
most of them with some exceptions,( it doesn't matter if it's r&b, pop, rock, alternative rock, Latin music, country or whatever), look classy or at least presentable, not like circus clowns with green hair, goofy makeup, too many tattoos,etc..

I'm 28, not 15, I'm a growup, I just don't need the noisy, stupid, clown routines you have in the too much of the entertainment business. I never did like that stuff that much.
I like music and musicians who have some style, talent and class. You know, music for grownups. There are only a few of the punk looking bands that really have any talent.

I can't help it, that is just how I feel about it.

Oh, and just for the record, I'm a grown-up too.

Brent wrote: It has been my experience, and I'm early 40s a few years older than you Uzma, that the kids who wore the punk styles when I was a teenager usually did have more trouble in school and with the law. Some of these kids were rebelling against overly strict parents but others were simply allowed to do whatever they wanted by overly liberal parents. Looks do influence how a young person percieves themself, and ask the police or the social workers about this. The kids with the most problems and who are most likely to end up dead, in jail, in drug treatment or preganant at 15 are the ones who look awful, look like punks, and all too often they have been spoiled by leniant parents. This cuts across racial and class lines as well. The good news is most of the kids who looked terrible and ridiculous outgrew it. But some didn't and ended up dead or addicted to drugs or booze or had other problems that were serious with the law. Some also ended up being bums who spend their life complaining and protesting how terrible conservatives are or how terrible western nations are. That I don't need and it is juvenile behaviour. I must admit my hair was a little long and I was maybe a little too much into hard rock and heavy metal myself when I was a teenager and a young adult, and I did try pot and drank some beer, but I outgrew it and thankfully never took more dangerous drugs like heroin or cocaine.

Brent,

I recall from my teens a couple of girls who had waist-lengh hair... one of them cut her hair quite short, out of rebellion against her parents who were very strict, though not about her hair being long. This seemed to mark a transition toward a downward spiral of increasingly detrimental choices. The other girl was raised by what you would call "liberal" parents. She was convinced by some of her friends that cutting her hair short would be fun and chic. Well she cut her hair short and then later found out that these friends had been jealous of her long hair and that that was their motivation for convincing her to cut her hair. The girl was furious and since she didn't like the short haircut anyway, began to grow it back out; by graduation her hair was nearly at her waist again.

You see Brent, your generalizations are not always true. Without getting too deeply involved into political digression, one weakness I have noticed in self-professed conservatives is that they rely too heavily on the absolute truth of generalizations (such as you have sprinkled "liberally" throughout your responses). Do not infer my political beliefs or viewpoints on any topics, unless I specifically state them. I generally see myself as an independent thinker, who sees both merit and drawback to various viewpoints on boths sides of the political spectrum.

Now, to comment more specifically on the above excerpt from you...

For some teenagers who are generally "model" children, parents who refuse to let them wear their hair as they wish can actually create a rift between the generations and in turn lead to the child's desire to behave in mischevious ways. So it's not the unusual hairstyle choice that leads to detrimental behavior; rather, the choice of the unusual hairstyle may be a manifestation of the unresolved differences between the parents and child. Don't confuse cause and effect.

Isla,

It isn't a question of "labeling" people. it's a matter of common sense.
None of us are total islands. We live in a society with other people. While it's true you can't allways judge people by how they look, how people look reflects how they feel about themselves and how they relate to others.

If a person has a pink or green mohawk, wears outlandish or skimpy clothes and is blasting rap or heavy metal music out of their car, most people associate that sort of look and behavior of a person as being juvenile, immature, or a silly way to look and behave. It's not about whether someone is "different" or not. It is about being taken seriously by others.

There are other looks that people don't like on people as well.

If people wear gang clothing and dress like gang bangers, people don't like it. If people looked dirty and grungy, people don't like it.

Of course, to some degree, we judge people by how they look, even if that seems unfair, it is something all of us do. That is reality.


And some people who look different are better accepted than others because they are considered more grownup or responsible, or less anti-social.



As an example, men with very long hair like Dave, or men with an earring, or a woman with short hair or a nosestud like I have, if they are clean and wearing presentable clothes and behave like a grownup, they may be considered a little eccentric or different by some people, but are still taken seriously and accepted by most people. They aren't considered threating, or anti-social, or juvenile by most people.

The "punk look" or the "gang look" is different. Most people don't take seriously people who look like a punk.
Likewise, most people feel threatened by people wearing gang colors, or people are disgusted by people who are excessively dirty or grungy looking.

In most adult's minds they associate certain looks and music with juvenile, immature behavior. That is a fact.


If you don't believe me, get a pink or green mohawk and drive around in a car blasting rap, or heavy metal or punk rock music. See the reaction you get from people.

I have nothing against people looking different. In some ways I'm different.
But I have common sense. I have seen, many times, the reactions that people get from others if they look like punks. People think they are immature and silly. And the people who wear the punk look, most of them, know, unless they are very young, that people look at them as being immature and silly. And it's often hard for them to get jobs, so many of them are unemployed. Certain looks don't inspire trust or confidence in others. Some "different" looks are much less accepted than other "different" looks are. That is a fact. Most people accept me with a nosestud, but if I were to get a pink Mohawk and many visible tattoos, I would be judged much more, people would be suspicious of me or think I was immature or silly and if I was looking for work, might not hire me.

And the looks that adults, employers, whatever, like the least are; people who look dirty, people who look like gang bangers, and people who look like punks.

If you don't believe me, try these looks yourself.

And it does matter at least to some degree, what others think of you, we are not total islands. We have to co-operate with society. That doesn't mean someone has to be a complete conformist, but it does mean you need at least some common sense.

Plus, most punk looks just aren't that attractive, regardless of the social consequences of the look. And that statement, of course, is just my opinion.

But I'm different enough Isla, I'm not getting a pink mohawk!(Tee hee).

Hi all,

First of all, thank you all for honestly expressing your opinions. It has really been thought provoking for me in a number of ways. I force myself to set aside time every week to read newpapers & magazines that challenge me on a number of fronts to help me identify my own inner demons and try to be a better, more informed person.

I find that this very thread, even though a little controversial, has helped me think about so many things...so thank you all so much for expressing yourselves.

Let me start by saying that I do not have children. I made a choice in my mid 20s that I was going to follow my dreams of having a career and personally felt that I could not focus on more than one demanding life path at a time. I enjoy kids and have tried to be a good aunt and "adopted aunt". I actually have 6 nieces and nephews and am close to some of them. They range from 10-23 in ages.

I also lived with a teenage stepson for 3 long and tortorous full time years :-). Although he did not rebel with wild hair colors or multiple piercings or even hair issues, he rebelled in many other teen ways that were more difficult to deal with. He refused to study or get good grades even though he was a very smart guy. He refused to work part time and when he was forced by his father, got fired from several jobs in a row including the very jobs that I had worked when I was putting myself through college. He left trash all over the house, left all the doors unlocked and sometimes wide open in the middle of the nite, he snuck out of the house at all hours to see his girlfriend and had a problem telling the truth. He refused to honor the rules of the house or even when he was grounded he would disregard his consequences of his actions.

Bottom line, he was just being a teenager. I think his dad and I would have welcomed him having long hair over flunking out of school, getting fired from multiple jobs and getting a raft of speeding and traffic tickets. :-)

The question PrettyBoi raised about his long hair is a difficult question to answer. I do not have my own biological children but I have my own form of kids. I also have hired and fired 3 different teens in a row at HairBoutique.com. Why? They showed up late, left early, didn't do their work, spent their time on their cell phones instead of dealing with HB.com customers and were terrible employees. Ironically I tried very hard to give them all the benefit of the doubt but ultimately they all were asked to leave. It hurt me to fire them but I always put my business as a priority and my customers come first, as it should be.

So where am I with all this? I think there are two sides to every story. I think that we all have our own baggage and inner demons that are triggered by these types of topics (just like religion and politics) and I think that ultimately everyone has to follow their own heart in every decision that they make. Ultimately the choices we make as parents, as kids, as teen, as business owners...we have to live with and we have to deal with in our own ways.

Thank you all for sharing your hearts and minds about this and for understanding that everyone has a right to own thoughts, feelings and opinions.

Best wishes...Happy Easter to all of you....

Karen