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Jeff & Karen View Drop Down
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    Posted: January 12 2000 at 2:54am
Karen & I have long considered the possibilty of creating a separate talk board for the discussion of the social aspects of hair (i.e long hair vs. short hair, long hair on men, short hair on women, buzz cuts, etc.) and in light of the recents discussions in Hair Talk we are thinking that it might be time to create such a Talk board. Karen & I would like to keep the focus of the Original Hair Talk on Hair Care topics, thus creating a new talk board will give our visitors an outlet for those non hair care related discussions that have recently popped up in Hair Talk.We are always trying to bring to our visitors the features that they need to get the most out of this site.First Question: What do you (our visitors) think of this idea?Second Question: What would be the general guidelines for this board (i.e. subject matter, code of conduct, etc.)?Third Question: How do we avoid flame wars?Fourth Question: What would be a good name for this board?Please let us know how you feel about this proposal and any answers to the above questions.Jeff & Karen
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William View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote William Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 12 2000 at 2:54am
> Karen & I have long considered the possibilty of> creating a separate talk board for the discussion of> the social aspects of hair (i.e long hair vs. short> hair, long hair on men, short hair on women, buzz> cuts, etc.) and in light of the recents discussions in> Hair Talk we are thinking that it might be time to> create such a Talk board. Karen & I would like to> keep the focus of the Original Hair Talk on Hair Care> topics, thus creating a new talk board will give our> visitors an outlet for those non hair care related> discussions that have recently popped up in Hair Talk.> We are always trying to bring to our visitors the> features that they need to get the most out of this> site.> First Question: What do you (our visitors) think of> this idea?> Second Question: What would be the general guidelines> for this board (i.e. subject matter, code of conduct,> etc.)?> Third Question: How do we avoid flame wars?> Fourth Question: What would be a good name for this> board?> Please let us know how you feel about this proposal> and any answers to the above questions.> Jeff & KarenFor what it is worth I think that your site is outstanding as a whole. Some people have a very hard time dealing with change even if it is on someone else's hair. I respect the strong feelings of someone who has experienced the ups and downs of having and caring for long hair over the years and is thoughtful enough to want to share their passion for such with the rest of us. I too, have a great passion for long beautiful hair,but I also must let my clients ultimately make that final decision as to how THEY want their hair! I can only advise and educate them honestly and let them make up their own mind without undo pressure from me or anyone else. When a client is 'educated' they will make the right decision 90% of the time when they are thinking with a clear head. So many stylists/friends try to 'sway' a persons thoughts that it becomes sometimes an act of desperation and relief for them to make a hasty decision, which they may pay for for a long time in unhappiness everytime they look in the mirror. I believe that a seperate board for discussion of the 'alternate subjects would be good, but please do not lose sight of the real purist who is sincere in his or her quest for "hair knowledge and help" for the sake of popularity! The infighting of certain individuals is both spirited because of true belief in a cause(the furtherance of long hair), and in the rights of others to express their voices. This is America, where we have the freedom to express ourselves, but we must not infringe upon the rights of others. Diane was very vocal in expressing her beliefs and should be commended for"speaking up and letting her voice be heard". Whatever her decision is, then let her make that and stand by it...Look to the future with a firm conviction of your purpose and look back and become wiser but, yesterday is history and meet each day for the challenge that it is and overcome the obstacles with positive thinking and positive actions! william
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Laura Jane View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Laura Jane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 12 2000 at 2:54am
> First Question: What do you (our visitors) think of> this idea?My feelings on this are somewhat mixed. On the one hand, it would be nice to keep this board focused on hair care. On the other hand, there are a lot of places where hair care and social aspects of hair overlap. For example, I would consider a request for style recommendations "hair care" - but what if that request is prompted by the fact that the poster is a long-haired male who is tired of being picked on because of his hair? That starts to sound more like "social aspects of hair". I guess as long as the new board didn't result in too restrictive an interpretation of Hair Talk, it wouldn't be a problem. I probably wouldn't be a frequent visitor to a new board, though - I don't have time to keep up with any more than I already do - and I think I might occasionally miss some of the social aspects discussion.> Second Question: What would be the general guidelines> for this board (i.e. subject matter, code of conduct,> etc.)?Identifying the subject matter as "the social aspects of hair" would probably be enough. A "code of conduct" similar to Hair Talk would appear appropriate, I suppose, but I don't know if it would work. I haven't visited the other boards here (except Announcements, occasionally), so I don't know what types of communities have developed on those, and I can't comment on whether there might be insights to be gained from those for this new board.> Third Question: How do we avoid flame wars?Good luck! "Social aspects of hair" is going to be a topic likely to start flame wars. I guess the best you can do is offer reminders such as have (usually) been fairly effective here. If this new board attracts the same type of people as Hair Talk, that might be sufficient.> Fourth Question: What would be a good name for this> board?No idea - I'm not good at naming things.> Please let us know how you feel about this proposal> and any answers to the above questions.Good luck if you do decide to start another board!Laura Janelswanson@sunflower.bio.indiana.edu
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Jade21 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jade21 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 12 2000 at 2:54am
> Karen & I have long considered the possibilty of> creating a separate talk board for the discussion of> the social aspects of hair (i.e long hair vs. short> hair, long hair on men, short hair on women, buzz> cuts, etc.) and in light of the recents discussions in> Hair Talk we are thinking that it might be time to> create such a Talk board. Karen & I would like to> keep the focus of the Original Hair Talk on Hair Care> topics, thus creating a new talk board will give our> visitors an outlet for those non hair care related> discussions that have recently popped up in Hair Talk.> We are always trying to bring to our visitors the> features that they need to get the most out of this> site.> First Question: What do you (our visitors) think of> this idea?> Second Question: What would be the general guidelines> for this board (i.e. subject matter, code of conduct,> etc.)?> Third Question: How do we avoid flame wars?> Fourth Question: What would be a good name for this> board?> Please let us know how you feel about this proposal> and any answers to the above questions.> Jeff & KarenDear Jeff and Karen,Hello again to both of you! I just wanted to add something to what William stated previously. I like Hair Talk very much and the focus of the Hair Boutique as a whole. It is superior.I can't say that I would enjoy or benefit from such a talk area as you have proposed. Somehow, I think e-mail is a better place.I liked what you said to Diane, Karen, and you were extremely articulate. I don't think that you or Jeff needs to be reactionary to the Diane situation. To be honest with you, I think that Diane's passion was a lot more than that, bordering on emotional problems. She just seemed to have too much time to be talking about her passion for long hair and her numerous encounters with citizens at shopping and employment places.Additionally, moderating such a discussion or even trying to develop rules might be extremely difficult. It sounds like you would at least like to try to develop some. In the end, as William emphasized, the real issue is individuality.I seriously doubt that if you are at one side or the other when it comes to hair length that any type of discussion in such a hair forum is going to change your opinion.I would also like to say that I used to wander through the Personals discussion, but stopped due to a thread of discussions which I read about the Hair Boutique was frankly a site for people with a hair fetish. This is one of the things which prompted me to ask you, Karen, about how to deal with my handle, Jade. I didn't want any confusion in Hair Talk between me and another visitor calling herself Jade. The discussion involved the other Jade and some guys.I don't think the Hair Boutique is a hair fetish site.A hair, shoe or any other fetish is extreme and can be quite detrimental.To reiterate what I have said previously, it is very nice to come to a site and acquire valuable information about hair care, from books to processes and things that have worked for others. It is also a pleasure to "meet" some folks from all over the world who enjoy the same.Hugs to Karen and Jeff,Jade21
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Jennifer J View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jennifer J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 12 2000 at 2:54am
> Karen & I have long considered the possibilty of> creating a separate talk board for the discussion of> the social aspects of hair (i.e long hair vs. short> hair, long hair on men, short hair on women, buzz> cuts, etc.) and in light of the recents discussions in> Hair Talk we are thinking that it might be time to> create such a Talk board. Karen & I would like to> keep the focus of the Original Hair Talk on Hair Care> topics, thus creating a new talk board will give our> visitors an outlet for those non hair care related> discussions that have recently popped up in Hair Talk.>> We are always trying to bring to our visitors the> features that they need to get the most out of this> site.My biggest question is whether it would really make a positive contribution to people's experience of the site or whether it would simply draw negativity away from this board into it's own little black hole.> Third Question: How do we avoid flame wars?I think that might be impossible.-jennifer j
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andy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 12 2000 at 2:54am
K+JI reckon you don't need to split the site, otherwise we get special messageboards for blondes, blondes who live in town x, blondes who live in town x and own cats,......... Just leave it as the eclectic mix it is now.As to avoiding flame wars: OK so we have freedom of speech, but with that goes the responsibility to speak wisely. So lets agree to:Not say ANYTHING in postings we wouldn't say to somebody's face.Not to engage in personal abuse (dispute the point OK, but not the right of the person to say it or their style in which they are saying it)Not to post anything which we haven't slept on and composed carefully. The populous will not mind if they don't hear your views RIGHT NOW, tomorrow will do. Think carefully and write a posting that actually says what you mean (I often compose using wordpad and then cut and paste into the compose screen on the board).andy
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Valentine View Drop Down
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Hi Karen and Jeff!Here's my two cents! ;o)> First Question: What do you (our visitors) think of> this idea?If it helps avoid conflicts and you do not mind making another board (after all, this is YOUR site!), I see nothing wrong with it. There seems to be a need for a place for folks to discuss it. However, considerations include whether or not to make that new board moderated or not. Also, if you decide not to make another board, perhaps putting links somewhere that tell people where boards are for that type of discussion would help. Then visitor would know where to go for the "social" issues/preferences of hair, particularly the more aggressive comments.> Second Question: What would be the general guidelines> for this board (i.e. subject matter, code of conduct,> etc.)?I think any way you want to handle it would be fine. Posting rules before entering the board would help and a warning if it is an unmoderated or lightly moderated site so unsuspecting visitors won't be offended by graphic language/context, etc. People also tend to like to link graphic pictures to their posts as well from time to time.> Third Question: How do we avoid flame wars?The second board might help. Rules for the boards would help. That way, if someone goes against the rules, they couldn't say that they weren't warned. If they don't like the rules, they can go elsewhere. It seems like a rough stance, but may keep everyone a bit happier in the long run.> Fourth Question: What would be a good name for this> board?Adult/Alternative Hair Discussions perhaps?> Please let us know how you feel about this proposal> and any answers to the above questions.> Jeff & KarenGood luck to you on your decision. Whatever you decide, I know it will be the best decision possible for everyone. You've always done your best to make this an awesome and respectable and fun site. You'll never be able to eliminate all flame wars no matter how hard you try (particularly with such a popular site), but you can minimize them.Hugs!Valentine :o)Related Link:House of Valentine
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Karen Shelton View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Karen Shelton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 12 2000 at 2:55am
Hi Jade21,Thank you for your support and great responses. I appreciate that you took the time to give your opinion.By the way...I am sleeping better now. Probably because of your email. :-)As far as this thread goes....Jeff and I have not decided on the appropriate action. New board or not.I agree with what you said about how difficult it would be to moderate a discussion and I also agree with everyone else who stated that is is nearly impossible to prevent flame wars.I also agree that I should not be reactionary about all this but Hair Talk has such a piece of me that sometimes it is hard not to be reactionary. I really appreciate your comments about that. It made me stop and think.I know your story on the Personals deal and I am sorry. That was very unfortunate. As Jeff stated somewhere else on this board, the Personals have kept the inappropriate "hey baby, hubba hubba" posts off Hair Talk...and for that I am appreciative.Yes...as William said...it is about individuality. I agree.Like you, I also love reading all the great posts from everyone and meeting lots of new people. A lot of the Hair Talk posters become like family to me and they hold a special place in my heart. You are one of them Jade21. :-)Hugs back at you.Karen> Dear Jeff and Karen,> Hello again to both of you! I just wanted to add> something to what William stated previously. I like> Hair Talk very much and the focus of the Hair Boutique> as a whole. It is superior.> I can't say that I would enjoy or benefit from such a> talk area as you have proposed. Somehow, I think> e-mail is a better place.> I liked what you said to Diane, Karen, and you were> extremely articulate. I don't think that you or Jeff> needs to be reactionary to the Diane situation. To be> honest with you, I think that Diane's passion was a> lot more than that, bordering on emotional problems.> She just seemed to have too much time to be talking> about her passion for long hair and her numerous> encounters with citizens at shopping and employment> places.> Additionally, moderating such a discussion or even> trying to develop rules might be extremely difficult.> It sounds like you would at least like to try to> develop some. In the end, as William emphasized, the> real issue is individuality.> I seriously doubt that if you are at one side or the> other when it comes to hair length that any type of> discussion in such a hair forum is going to change> your opinion.> I would also like to say that I used to wander through> the Personals discussion, but stopped due to a thread> of discussions which I read about the Hair Boutique> was frankly a site for people with a hair fetish. This> is one of the things which prompted me to ask you,> Karen, about how to deal with my handle, Jade. I> didn't want any confusion in Hair Talk between me and> another visitor calling herself Jade. The discussion> involved the other Jade and some guys.I don't think> the Hair Boutique is a hair fetish site.A hair, shoe> or any other fetish is extreme and can be quite> detrimental.> To reiterate what I have said previously, it is very> nice to come to a site and acquire valuable> information about hair care, from books to processes> and things that have worked for others. It is also a> pleasure to "meet" some folks from all over> the world who enjoy the same.> Hugs to Karen and Jeff,> Jade21
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Dawn View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dawn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 12 2000 at 2:55am
Jeez, miss a couple days and there's a hundred messages andmore hot new debates!Ok, be careful what you ask for, you just might get it, so here'smy two plus cents. Everyone made great points in theirresponses. Karen and Jeff, you are the most caring, diplomaticpeople on the planet and you go to great lengths to make acomfortable place for everyone, so I'm with Valentine thatwhatever you finally decide will surely end up being the bestcourse of action, you have an uncanny way with people and yoursite is like no other. But I would hate to see you change things justbecause one person made some comments that were quite franklyunfair and blatantly manipulative. I also agree with Jennifer thatits just impossible to control the troublemakers, no matter whattype of forum you place them in, the rest of the group just needsto ignore them and carry on as usual. The key IMO is not tosegregate but to expect a certain level of civility from everyone. Ithink it was William that said that this forum, Hair Talk, is asperfect a place as it can be, a wonderfully exhilerating mix of ALLkinds of people with all kinds of tastes in hair in all its forms. Thatswhat gives it its special flavor and why its fun to hang here. Thissite is hardly "just" about cuts and color. We generally have alively discussion about all aspects of hair, including the social andpolitical ramifications of various hair lengths or styles. Thisdiscourse if nearly always conducted with grace and decorum byfollowing a few basic rules of conduct that would apply anywhereyou would go, like Andy said, don't say something you wouldn'tdare say to someone's face, disagree with a person's ideas butdon't be so devoid of imagination as to stoop to attacking theirpersona (they have as much right to their opinion as you do toyours), if you insist on flaming someone back and forth, ie. no youare, no you are, no I must have the last word, etc., take itoff-board and do it privately please, so the rest of us don't have tosee it, try and include some small bit of real info, constructiveadvice, even criticism or just some interesting little tid bit in yourposts so they're of value to the group as a whole,and above all,DON'T always take an abrasive, adversarial stance against thosewith preferences other than your own. Thats what makes thisboard so entertaining and less dogmatic than others in the firstplace. Who wants to always be preaching to the converted? Its thefun of having others who don't all share the same views thatkeeps the place jumping. We can be quite different and stillcivilized about the matter can't we? I think it would be a shame tocloister that diversity into little units where everyone was alike oron the other hand where everyone just wanted to engage inmindless venting of their views. The saddest and most disturbingaspect is that, just like what happened a few weeks ago with thebuzz cutters and their politicing, it seems to be just one personcausing all this discord and making everyone feel like there'ssomething wrong with the board and with its discussions. I haven'theard anyone else ever express those same opinions or cry out forattention in quite the same way, or, as Rich so astutely observed,be so obsessed with always having the very last word in everydiscourse. I think it would be too bad for the rest of us if this onewhiner was allowed to have her way by actually altering thenature of the board, which for me at least wasn't broken anddidn't need fixing in the first place. There are other places to gowhere long hair as a religion is encouraged, but I like Hair Talkeven better. I believe in long hair too, FOR ME, not as a final edictfor all women as a badge of their femininity and again, I have toagree with Jennifer that if you come across as hostile andabrasive, language barrier or no, people will respond in kind.Ok. Just MHO. I'm with Laura Jane that I probably wouldn't havetime to frequent another board and would be upset about havingto always categorize my discussions so they fit the criteria of eachforum. We've ridden out other disturbances, don't you think thisone will pass too when the perpetrator tires of the game? I'm surehoping so.Very best wishes to all,Dawn> Karen & I have long considered the possibilty of> creating a separate talk board for the discussion of> the social aspects of hair (i.e long hair vs. short> hair, long hair on men, short hair on women, buzz> cuts, etc.) and in light of the recents discussions in> Hair Talk we are thinking that it might be time to> create such a Talk board. Karen & I would like to> keep the focus of the Original Hair Talk on Hair Care> topics, thus creating a new talk board will give our> visitors an outlet for those non hair care related> discussions that have recently popped up in Hair Talk.> We are always trying to bring to our visitors the> features that they need to get the most out of this> site.> First Question: What do you (our visitors) think of> this idea?> Second Question: What would be the general guidelines> for this board (i.e. subject matter, code of conduct,> etc.)?> Third Question: How do we avoid flame wars?> Fourth Question: What would be a good name for this> board?> Please let us know how you feel about this proposal> and any answers to the above questions.> Jeff & Karen
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>> Jeff & KarenSince most everyone has put their two cents in...here goes mine for all it's worth. I think the site is fine as is. You have created space for everyone. You have a place for those who want to "shout" about something.. a place for the dating scene online.. and here, a place for open chat on hair in all it's aspects. We had a blow up a few months back with the buzzers. I think they were here to mock, not to be constructive. Afterall, when you buzz your hair, you have no hair. That blew over. This will blow over as well. Like I said, I only read a few of the posts that brought all this about. I can read a few of one thread, gets it feel and if it's not for me, off I go. I have disagreed many times at heart with alot of the posts...but that's life.We all will find something to agree with or disagree with. If you try to design areas for everyone, you will eventually go nuts!! There are too many different personalities in life. If you have ones who visit the board and seem to want to stir it up with contention, ask them to leave. Or delete them.It worked a few months back. Also, if you add no fuel to the fire, it will burn out. I have noticed buzzers try to return but with no feedback, they disappear. We all have our "manias"... I can look in my bathroom and see tons of haircare products.. I have 7 animals..one that is enough for anyone to control (pitbull) but 6 more besides to care for.. history books piled everywhere.. those are my passions. I take them to their limit. Each of us have our passions... we just cannot enforce them on others but if we happen to find someone who is a "soulmate"- that brings alot of satisfaction. I think that is why alot of us hang here.. hair is a priority. We are looking for others who share the need to care for hair. There are many areas of hair and I think that is why this site is so popular.. it is diverse. If you make different areas for each topic.. we will all have to find our space.. I like the site as is.. I read the posts that I find interesting.. pass the others by. With having raised kids for 20 years.. I can tell you that I have gone through many blow ups. Sometimes I have felt like running off on vacation..! But now as a seasoned mom... I know that the blow ups pass and calm returns.. I can look at my bickering kids and know that eventually they will head out the door together ..jump in the car and head to the movies. Two of my kids.. who love each other, but see life very differently.. have agreed to disagree.. Makes life a whole lot more peaceful. Thank God they have matured enough to realize that. I commend you both Karen and Jeff .. You guys go to great lengths here. You deserve a cyber pat on the back... I think you have gotten alot of feedback from everyone to make a decision which I know will benefit us all. Kudos.. Cher~
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Dear Dawn,First of all I didnt' knock down this site and I don't think that my words have such an influence on anything but the reason why I am addressing you is becuase I need to tell you something. Please most people don't address the issue they just leave the site as I seen it happen.Please Dawn I said I was sorry to the site and why are you stirring this again? Have you ever made any mistakes in your life?I am a long hair person that loves hair jewelry.When you are participate you are entilte to many opiinions but when you enter the field of marketing as you just did please be advise that you no longer have that obtion.Who are you targeting to buy your product line? People who love hair jewelry and have long hair. And who have you targeted in your last post it was a long hair woman that happen to have announced many times that I love hair jewelry.I was looking at your line and I was thinking of buying some eventhought our dollar diffirence would make it more expensive. When I buy hair jewlery I can easily spend $100.00 or more for one item. You lost a potential customer. You might think who cares. But this potential customer is known in her city for wanting hair jewelry and I have boutiques owners go to New York to markets and I am a very good customer. Plus I also know other long hair customer that often asked me where I buy my stuff.Don't ever expect me to buy your stuff or encourage any of my friend because you couldn't recognized that I am actually a human being that made a mistake. The only real mistake I made was when I questioned Andy about his passion of hair.All I was asking for Mary was that she talk to her husband. I am a believer that communcation , sharing with our mate is the best policy.I am starting to think that Mary post wasn't even real.Now you might still think who cares if Diane is pissed off with you now. May I also let you know that if you wanted to enter Canada and market your product line I would have been an excellent person to talk to as I happen to know all the dates and the locations of the Canadian Markets and the import and export laws in this Country. I am a memberof CAWS which means I am in contact with all sales manufacturers in Canada and sales reps. I am well respected for my marketing skills and I happen to know a lot of assoceries reps from Toronto to Vancouver. Please I also happen to know a lot of reps in your country becuase I had to attend national meetings.I took many products and made them a house hold name in a very large territory.So next time you decide to not allow someone to say they are so sorry etc you better think of all the causes and effects it might have. I was thinking of buying some and then I would have emailed you and presented my marketing idea for this Country.All I am saying can be proven very easily.I happen to think the long hair is very attractive on women. I happen to have a passion for long hair and I think your hair is very beautiful .I would have thought you of all people would understand the need to encourage women to keep their long hair.We have an attittude in this society that says to men if you want a career cut your hair. We have this attitude that says when you turn 40 you cut your hair.Where was it even written that short hair is more attractive on women. Where does it says that when we turn 40 we look better with short hair. I am not against short hair. i was a short hair woman for years but I wasn't happy with my cuts, my length and now I am love my long hair and plan to continue to allow it grow a lot longer. I am so happy with the fact that long hair is so easy that I was to tell other women that it is not true that long hair is more work. If anything else long hair is more fun and you can do so much with it. A lot more than short hair. I hope that many short hair women that were thinking of allowing it to grow will as they will easily see that it is very fun to have.To end this I have no idea what it is . I seem to have people that really love my comments and some that really hate my comments. I guess becuase Iam such a strong vocal person that strongly believes in the rights of having long hair . I have people emailing me all the time thanking me for understanding and fighting for the rights of long hair.Not everyone is so strong as you Dawm. Some women cut their hair and then they cry. That break my heart as I hear it all the day. On this site I didn't want Mary to cry if she decided to cut her hair.Was it such a crime to strongly beleive that long hair is so femimine on women?Yes we have the right to choice but you Dawn haven't you ever noticed that there is a huge attitude that you should cut your hair.The biggest problem is that too many years this short hair atttitude went on and we long hair people were very quiet. Now some of us are vocal .I really don't care if you agree or disagree because the reality is that if men want to have careers they are tortured to cut their hair. We as long hair women don't have an excellent market to cather to us. Its all about short hair.That is my battle . I made a powerpoint presentation about something fun. It was called how to become a long hair goddess on the internet. Well it was well presented and I made my professor really think to the reasons why he felt he had to cut his long hair. His wife wants him to grow his hair and he is asking if having long hair will affect his career as a professor. That is the battle. If it was really our choice we wouldn't feel trap in cutting our hair.One is very blinded to think that we have choices. We are influence everyday to cut our hair.If one Dawn I would hear that you would want to cut your hair short. I would feel that I need to be a real friend and remind you that you spend a lifetime growing your mane.Then when you have really thought and decided then I would feel happy as I would sense that you wouldn't be devastated afterwards.Its very easy to way whatever you want and be the popular one its not so easy and remind the person of the beauty and the reason why they decided to have long hair in the first place.Yes I am very bold and direct but I am a true friend when the need arrises iin whatever sittuation occurs .My biggest beef about people is that they don't have enough guts to stand up for what they believe in and I strongly understand that because I stood up for what I beleive in and look some of you actually have this strong dislike for me but the only diffirence is that I am very strong and will not bend . I will say sorry when I am wrong but never the right of having long hair in society.Maybe the ones that dislike me so much are the ones that can't stand up for their own rights in their life and have a difficult time relating to us who take causes and fight for justice.Dawn I am fighting so that you and I don't need to hear that when we turn 40 we are not in style, we out of date. Go get a hair cut.You want to dislike me for that go ahead and when you decide you dislike me you better think of the reasons why you decided to have very long hair. I want a society that says its okay for men to have long hair and that we aren't pestered to cut our hair.If you still dislike me Dawn then you are not being true to yourself. I wish you the best.
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KAREN View Drop Down
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Joined: May 30 2002
Location: CALIFORNIA
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KAREN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 12 2000 at 2:56am
Hi Dawn,I have to start out by saying...hugs..to you.Your post was so insightful and full of good points.It is amazing how things in life give us "flashbacks" and memories or where we were. Ironically, 10 years ago I was in my own personal hell where I lived or died by what people thought of me.If someone did not like me, I was in complete agony trying to figure out how to make them like me. I would not rest until I had figured out how to turn the tide. Get them on my side. Whatever it took. I always had to have my way too, because it felt safer that way. I took everything personally. If a grocery store checker was in a bad mood.... I just knew it was about me. If traffic was horrible...about me...heck, if Saddam Hussein was on a rampage....about me. Everything was about me. Very sad. But very true.I was really not a very nice person back then because I couldn't relax and just be who I was because then someone might not like me or treat me bad or whatever.I crashed and burned and spent 5 hard years peeling the layers off the onion of me to get down inside my soul. It was horrible to do all that self discovery, but wonderful at the same time. I finally emerged, after lots of "karen work" as me.Now, just about nothing, is ever about me. Now, if someone is rude or unpleasant, I try to cut them extra slack because I just figure that they are having a bad day. I feel very grateful that I was lucky enough to get the type of help that I needed to find peace and serenity in my life.People ask me how I can work three jobs and still seem sane and happy. I guess because I only do those things that I really feel are right for me and so I am able to do almost everything with joy. I know there are people out there that don't like me and that is OK with me because that is life. If they like me...cool. If not...that is their right. I don't like everyone I meet...why would I expect them to all like me.It is such incredible freedom to not have to worry all the time about things being my way. Now I prefer that things just be done for the good of all. I still give my opinion...but don't care if things are done some other way.This whole debate on Hair Talk has actually made me feel very thankful and grateful that I can flashback to how I used to be and see how far that I have traveled.I feel very blessed to have met so many wonderful people who show so much caring on this board. Jeff and I have put our entire hearts and souls into Hair Boutique and Hair Talk....not to mention lots of personal money. My hope has always been that Hair Talk would be like a warm, cozy gathering place where friends can hang out and talk and have friendly debates about hair. Not just what brand of shampoo, but all kinds of hair stuff. And no one is right, no one is wrong. But everyone is entitled to their opinions.I acknowledge that Jeff and I need to have more specific guidelines. I guess to say....talk about hair...is too vaque. Except that it seemed to work before.I have always been so vocal in my beliefs about "freedom of hair" that I just assumed everyone would know that I am not for nor am I against long hair, short hair, flattops, etc.I have made my own personal choice...and it is hair to my butt. But when I get email asking for help on cutting hair, I always try to help the best I can. I can't always answer all the personal email..but I do try.I think some people feel better in long hair and some feel better in short hair. They have to make peace with themselves and if having their hair long or short helps them...well that is wonderful as far as I am concerned.Anyway...I wanted to answer your post because it moved me so much. I also want to clarify that in no way is this posting about anyone but you and me.In no way am I making veiled comments aimed at anyone else. This is a post to you Dawn, from my heart.Thank you for everything.Big giant hugs,Karen> Jeez, miss a couple days and there's a hundred> messages and> more hot new debates!> Ok, be careful what you ask for, you just might get> it, so here's> my two plus cents. Everyone made great points in their> responses. Karen and Jeff, you are the most caring,> diplomatic> people on the planet and you go to great lengths to> make a> comfortable place for everyone, so I'm with Valentine> that> whatever you finally decide will surely end up being> the best> course of action, you have an uncanny way with people> and your> site is like no other. But I would hate to see you> change things just> because one person made some comments that were quite> frankly> unfair and blatantly manipulative. I also agree with> Jennifer that> its just impossible to control the troublemakers, no> matter what> type of forum you place them in, the rest of the group> just needs> to ignore them and carry on as usual. The key IMO is> not to> segregate but to expect a certain level of civility> from everyone. I> think it was William that said that this forum, Hair> Talk, is as> perfect a place as it can be, a wonderfully> exhilerating mix of ALL> kinds of people with all kinds of tastes in hair in> all its forms. Thats> what gives it its special flavor and why its fun to> hang here. This> site is hardly "just" about cuts and color.> We generally have a> lively discussion about all aspects of hair, including> the social and> political ramifications of various hair lengths or> styles. This> discourse if nearly always conducted with grace and> decorum by> following a few basic rules of conduct that would> apply anywhere> you would go, like Andy said, don't say something you> wouldn't> dare say to someone's face, disagree with a person's> ideas but> don't be so devoid of imagination as to stoop to> attacking their> persona (they have as much right to their opinion as> you do to> yours), if you insist on flaming someone back and> forth, ie. no you> are, no you are, no I must have the last word, etc.,> take it> off-board and do it privately please, so the rest of> us don't have to> see it, try and include some small bit of real info,> constructive> advice, even criticism or just some interesting little> tid bit in your> posts so they're of value to the group as a whole,and> above all,> DON'T always take an abrasive, adversarial stance> against those> with preferences other than your own. Thats what makes> this> board so entertaining and less dogmatic than others in> the first> place. Who wants to always be preaching to the> converted? Its the> fun of having others who don't all share the same> views that> keeps the place jumping. We can be quite different and> still> civilized about the matter can't we? I think it would> be a shame to> cloister that diversity into little units where> everyone was alike or> on the other hand where everyone just wanted to engage> in> mindless venting of their views. The saddest and most> disturbing> aspect is that, just like what happened a few weeks> ago with the> buzz cutters and their politicing, it seems to be just> one person> causing all this discord and making everyone feel like> there's> something wrong with the board and with its> discussions. I haven't> heard anyone else ever express those same opinions or> cry out for> attention in quite the same way, or, as Rich so> astutely observed,> be so obsessed with always having the very last word> in every> discourse. I think it would be too bad for the rest of> us if this one> whiner was allowed to have her way by actually> altering the> nature of the board, which for me at least wasn't> broken and> didn't need fixing in the first place. There are other> places to go> where long hair as a religion is encouraged, but I> like Hair Talk> even better. I believe in long hair too, FOR ME, not> as a final edict> for all women as a badge of their femininity and> again, I have to> agree with Jennifer that if you come across as hostile> and> abrasive, language barrier or no, people will respond> in kind.> Ok. Just MHO. I'm with Laura Jane that I probably> wouldn't have> time to frequent another board and would be upset> about having> to always categorize my discussions so they fit the> criteria of each> forum. We've ridden out other disturbances, don't you> think this> one will pass too when the perpetrator tires of the> game? I'm sure> hoping so.> Very best wishes to all,> Dawn
TAKE CARE WITH YOUR HAIR!
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Dawn View Drop Down
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Joined: April 16 2002
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dawn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 12 2000 at 2:56am
Oooo you girl, I wish I could just give you a great big squeeze. You are so sharing of yourself. That was a beautiful post and I just can't imagine you as anything but the warm, genuine person you are now. Like you said, it was always there under the layers. Isn't it a shame how people can hurt us so badly that we have to go through so much to find ourselves again? I'm glad you rescued your inner child and I know all the people who come here are too. We've all had to dump that excess emotional baggage at some point in life and you are very right that it is SOooo liberating when its gone.Thanks for giving us this forum Karen, I think its quite a homey special place for lots of folks and as Cher said, when you gain enough maturity (or the years just wear you down!) you realize that if you love something you stick with it and the little ups and downs are what make life interesting!Very best wishes to everyone and a special big cyber hug to you too Karen!Dawn
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