Your points are well taken but I am not a right wing extremist. I am moderately conservative and flexible with my kids. Some things I would allow, some things In wouldn't.
Uzma: Come on lady, you know Maria pretty well by now. To compare her to a racist is totally absurd. That is the oldest left wing extremist trick in the book Uzma. If someone objects to some outrageous fashion, hairstyle or whatever the case, compare them to a racist. Oldest trick in the book. No one chooses their skin color or the culture or religion they were born into. People do choose to look like gang bangers and little immature punks. The fact is, with some exceptions as Maria noted, most people who look like punks are punks. Many of them are immature. One of the things that grown adults do is judge, we sum up people by their apperance. Certainly employers do this. That is part of life. Like Maria said, rightly or wrongly, that...is... reality!!!! You know that. Maybe you need to look at yourself. Liberals are not always morally superior and right. You are intolerant of anything but ultra-liberalism. I have an interacial marriage, I'm Caucasion ,my wife is East Asian. Don't ever compare me to racist, and Maria I'm sure isn't one either!
Isla Q.
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Wow Lady Maria. (...) I'm not having a "go" at you. Our experiences and opinions are very different. I am just suggesting that if you give a little time to people whose appearance you dislike, you may be happily suprised to find that you love the person who years that pink mohican.
Uzma
Ditto. Once again, Uzma, you put it into words I couldn't find. You write beautifully!
Maria, I too was not "having a go" at you, simply pointing something out I got from your posts (and obviously disagreeing with you). I'm a law student, I'm trained to do that stuff, sorry if you felt like you were being attacked.
Karen, thanks for sharing your story with all of us and for your wise words.
Happy Easter everyone!
uzma
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Isla Q - thank you for your kind words. Nice to know we are on the same wave-length.
Brent - I am not accusing either Maria or yourself of racism. I am just pointing out that judging people by their appearance is not doing justice to either that person or yourself. This may be the way society operates but IMHO it is a fundamental error.
Karen - I know where you are coming from. I have and am involved with "raising" children who are not mine by birth. Difficult behaviour in teenagers is a learning experience for all - LOL - I learnt patience, how to repeat myself ad nauseam, the subtle use of humour and above all tolerance while the storm is played out and sanity of sorts returns to the proceeding. Skills that are also useful for posting on these discussion forums - hehehehe - just kidding.
In fact you did draw an analogy between me and a racist Uzma, and I don't appreciate that.
Mexican-Americans can't afford to look like punks Uzma. We face enough discrimination as it is, especially those of us who are not "White" Hispanics. We are stereotyped as being dirty, lazy, "foreign" and unpatriotic, and possibly criminal. None of this is true of course. Academic studies show that Mexican-Americans work the longest work week of any ethnic group in America, not only because so many of us were raised poor or working class and need the money but we have to prove to other people that we are hard working, and believe me no one works harder than Mexicans.
We serve in the military more than just about any other group. We have to prove we are patriotic and we are.
Even the poorest Mexican family allways keeps themselves neat and clean. We can't afford much but we can afford soap and water. We are amongst the cleanest people. And because of discrimination against us it is very important to us, for our pride and our honor, to allways look presentable. I was taught never to do anything that would disgrace myself, my family, or the Mexican people, to allways look and act in a dignified manner.
I have faced racial prejudice. I have been told by both Black people and White people to "Go back to Mexico you foreigner" and worse things than that,(even though I am a 5th generation American from an English speaking family). I have had Black people threaten to kill me before, just because I am Mexican.
When my father was a young man in Texas, he was severly beaten by a group of "Anglo" White thugs just because he was Mexican. My father was hospitalized after the beating for several weeks. They beat him with their fists, kicked him with their feet, and beat him with baseball bats. He suffered a concussion, both of his eyes were swollen shut, they broke his nose, they broke several of his ribs, and they broke both of his legs. One of his legs was broken so badly that to this day my father still limps. He still has scars on his face from the beating. Yet my father still loves America(he served honorably in the army when he was young), and he doesn't hate White people, in fact he likes the White guy I am getting married to. My father is a kind, gentle,hard-working, hohorable man. He did nothing to deserve that severe beating.
I love my parents. They were strict and conservative with me but they were good to me. I would never disgrace them or my family by looking like a punk woman.
What gets me is these teenagers and young adults, usually from wealthy suburbs, who dye their hair green, get all kinds of tattoos and wear too much jewelry, makeup,etc. and play loud awfull music and then claim that people are discriminating against them. They don't even know what REAL discrimination is. All they have to do is make themselves look presentable and not look like a punk and they can have anything they want. And they can fall back on their families money if they can't get a job. Most Mexicans can't afford that , we have to have honor and work hard. We have to look presentable, we can't look like punks and wouldn't want to.
These wealthy punk kids quite honestly disgust me. They have everything handed to them. Where is their honor and pride? I am so glad I am not them. I wasn't raised rich but I have my integrity.
I don't think you Uzma, or some of you other people on this board, understand Mexican-Americans, we are proud working class, patriotic people. We would never disgrace ourselves, or our families, by looking or acting like punks.
As I said before in an earlier post, everyone is entitled to their own opinions and thoughts and feelings. They all have validity and should be honestly considered.
However, it is never appropriate to turn a good debate about hair into personal attacks in any way.
I am not taking sides, I am not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone who has posted. I value and appreciate everyone's thoughts and feelings.
Lady Maria, my apologies regarding your last post. Please understand that the post from Anonymous was a troll post that was designed to attack you and your feelings.
The Anonymous post was deleted since it was meant to cause problems on this thread. A legitimate poster would have posted with their registered name. The IP address of the Anonymous poster indicated that they had troll intentions.
We try very hard here on the Messageboards to eliminate all malicious posts from trolls or people who only care about causing trouble.
A real member who disagrees with your post would post under their registered name and IP and not Anonymously.
When someone is sincere about posting here they will register, which means the person is traceable via IP address. They will establish an identity that shows that they are legit in their interest in posting. It is wise to always be a little leery of unregistered posters, especially those who appear to post with messages that are designed to stir up trouble. Trolls love to stir up controversy and anger and then sit back and enjoy the show they created. Please don't let trolls manipulate you and your feelings.
Best wishes, Karen Shelton HairBoutique.com
That which doesn't kill you makes you stronger or drives you totally insane. :-)
Lady Maria
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I'm alittle late jumping in here, and I have not read all the posts... because I got snagged with what Brent was saying way back on April 18th about the bad kids having too much freedom... the ones with tatoos, piercings, and outlandish clothes are the ones in trouble most of the time.
I am not going to argue on this, I just know in my family ( I have 4 sons, 1 daughter, and 1 stepson) that has not held true.
Two of my sons keep their hair very short, almost military style. Two have long hair, shoulder length, one longer. My stepson has a short style.
Let's just look at the two youngest... the clean cut is in a lot of trouble, the "long-hair" is the "A" student and has work ethics. The short hair is dabbling in stuff he should not be, and the long hair is clean.
I will keep it short, have to go... but it's what is on the inside of the person, not the outside that makes you who you are.
Precious is the day... it happens only once in a lifetime.
Lady Maria
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I can't speak for Brent but I reread his posts and he wasn't talking about teenage boys or young men with long hair, he was talking about teenage boys or young men or young women who dress like gang bangers or punks.
Long hair on men is usually not the style these days of gangsters, punks, or hoodlums, like it was many years ago. Long haired young men are usually fairly peaceful or are artistic types or musicians who usually don't cause too much trouble and usually don't get into that much trouble.
So it is not surprising that your long haired son isn't giving you too many problems.
There are many working men too who have long hair, my fiancee is one of them, and people don't associate them with problems.
It is different with people who look like gangsters or punks as both Brent and I were trying to explain. But this whole debate has really gotten off track and silly.
Obviously if a young person looks too outlandish or anti-social like a gangster or a punk, with that type of clothing, hair, tattoos, etc. people will be sceptical of them, and some employers won't hire them, depending upon the job. If a young man or woman is doing sales work with the public for example, they usually don't hire a woman who is heavily tattooed with a green mohawk and 10 piercings in each ear, an eyebrow ring, and "Goth" makeup, unless it is a business that is a little avant-garde like a music store where they sell teenage music or maybe certain bars or coffeshops that cater to that type of crowd. But many conventional businesses won't hire them because obviously they don't want to drive away the general public and lose money. Obviously.
If a young man is wearing very baggy pants that almost are falling off of him, has piercings all over his face and is wearing gang colors or a jacket of a local gang, he probably won't get hired for the sales job. Hair length isn't the issue, it is other things or if the hair is colored goofy or cut in a punk style.
You see young people like this and some of them work someplace or another but many of them don't work, they live off of government checks, or off of family members and they seem to pride themselves on being anti-social and don't want to be part of society and work like the rest of us have to.
Or they pride themselves on doing time in jail, or use alot of drugs or liqour or whatever. Unless you have lead a very sheltered existence I am sure you have met these type of young people or at least seen them around. And sure clean cut kids can get in trouble also but usually not as often as kids who are trying to be against society or anti-social.
Some of them I am sure are just going through a juvenile phase that they will grow out of but some of them get into alot of trouble.
That is all I was trying to say. And I think Brent understood what I was saying and added to what I wrote with his own take on it, and maybe a couple other people who have read this thread understood what I was saying. Everyone else said ,"Oh you can't judge people by how they look".
Well of course there are exceptions, but usually people that try to look anti-social and like punks or like gangsters, often they are trouble. And many of them smell too even though alot of these kids are from wealthier families. They think they are being cool , being "grungy".
If very poor Mexican immigrants who work hard for very little money can be clean and presentable, and try to get along with people, why can't youngsters from wealthy suburban families also wash, be clean, and be presentable?
I guess I just don't understand why young people want to look anti-social and silly. I just wonder where their pride in themselves is.
I guess I was raised differently. Even though we were working class Mexican-Americans, my family allways worked hard and were clean and presentable. To me self-respect and respect for others is more important than looking silly like an anti-social punk just to seem "cool".
And it isn't just how they look, it is often how they act toward others. How a person presents themselves to the world is a reflection of what they think of themselves and others. That is obvious.
Like Brent said, we have no choice about our ethnicity or skin color or how tall or short we are but we do have a choice in how we present ourselves to others and the respect we show to ourself and others.
Everyone is making such great points here! I just had to jump in and say so. Maria, uzma, Brent, Karen, Princesa WOW....what diversity we have in all of your opinions. I agree in part with everyone's points. BUT the fact of the matter is, until you have carried for 9 months, stayed up all night with for a year after, then cried at every christmas pageant, everytime a friend hurts their feelings. Run them to the hospital with a broken leg or a fever of 105... You don't know what you are talking about. If you have done this, then you know - You have EARNED your right to have a say in how your child looks. NOTE: I said "have a say" NOT control. Most rebellious children are looking for someone to discipline them - They are "seeing where their boundaries lay" They start doing this at the age of 2 and don't stop until they move out. As i said in my earlier post, I would never tell my son (3 of them) how to wear their hair. However, it is known fact that it isn't the hair that is the problem, it is the attitude that comes with the hair that is the problem. I was a punk in high school and truly enjoyed looking different than the jocks - but I did not have the "nonconformist" attitude. I got good grades and was on my way to study medicine - my parents were cool about it. They were strict hispanic people too, they did not let me go out at night with my friends, but they did let me listen to my music and look how I wanted too.
SO in essence - look to the other, more important issues you have with your parents prettyboi- Do they see you as you really are? or do they see you as the person they want you to be?
Uzma - you are a rarity. It is in our blood since prehistory to judge based on looks. Zebras do not live with lions. It is part of our survival mechanism to search out our "pack" and become part of it in order to survive. In some people it is very obvious (your left wing elitists, conservatives, etc) for some it is conformity in nonconformism.....yes, they are a pack too. I am one of them.
I have to stop this post now and get on with my life.
Jacqui; Yes this thread has been very interesting with diverse opinions. As I have stated, and I think Maria was saying this as well, it is not a matter of the parent attempting to control everything about a child's life or even control the way they look entirely, it is just letting the youngster know when they are going to an extreme that is not socially acceptable. Another word for it is guidance. That there are in fact limits, chilfren need to learn that. There is also authority and societal norms. At work you have a boss. Even if you run your own business you have to deal with others in the public. There is such a thing as "norms" of behaviour and even dress, that you at least need to be aware of . I'm not saying that people don't have the right to be outside of those norms, my contention is they have the right to do that as an adult when they are paying their own way and fully accepting the consequences of their actions. Children need to learn that there is such a thing as cause and effect, that what you do or how you dress will draw reactions from others. To give children the false sense that there are no consequences concerning how they look or behave is essentially to deceive them. That is, to give them a version of reality that really isn't true. It isn't advisable to give them a false idealistic illusion of how the world really works.
Let kids experiment, yes but only to a point, and parents do have a certain amount of say over the minors in their care. If you were to upsurp that parental right which has worked for society for centuries and has been part of the backbone and structure of society, you aren't doing anyone any favors. Parents have to be flexible but children have to obey their parents as well. Most importantly, don't give kids any false illusions abpout reality, they have to know the bad as well as the good. They have to know that people in fact do judge them by their behaviour and their apperance. Good thread, I have enjoyed reading everyone's varying opinions and ideas!
Brent - was your post directed to me? I wasn't sure. if so, you are preaching to the choir. I think I expressed my agreement with you and Maria (albeit, not as articulated as I would have wished, given I had only a few minutes to post)in my prior post.
I believe that with time comes wisdom, which is why in our youth we are more spontaneous and "silly" as Maria puts it. ANd why when we are older, we move towards more peaceful and intelligent thinking.
I believe that God brings us to the earth in the hands of two people (sometimes one, sometimes more!) because we are too small to care for ourselves and that until we can fly on our own, we must respectfully accept the guidance of our parents. I also believe that any child who resents the way their parents are raising them and still resents them as an adult - WAS NOT taught respect and will always have problems with authority. I think you agree with some of this - maybe you don't with some. I am glad that I have been able to read yours and everyone else's thoughts on this matter. I have a long road with my 4 kids and know that in order to make sure they make it into adulthood with their self esteem and identity as well as my love and support I will need to learn as much as I can.jacqui
Jacqui: I wasn't directing my statements at you specifically; just expressing myself a little for what it's worth. I knew by what you had written that you didn't have any major disagreements with what I had written. You have four kids huh! I've got three. They are sometimes a challenge even a hassle but they are worth it. I've decided not to trade them in for a new car. Have a nice evening.
wittils
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I have a very large family... (5 of my own and a stepson). I have learned a lot through the years, as I was a single parent for 8 years. My childrens' father was not involved in their lives at all after the divorce, so it was just me.
I may have been too "liberal" in the area of how they dressed overall. But cleanliness was top priority for me with them, they wore clean clothes, had clean hair, and didn't smell like a walking gym room. I know I was more concerned and strict about being honest at home and out in the world, having good morals, etc.
As for styles... with 4 teenager boys, each had his own. And I did not want to interfere with how they expressed themselves. Was I lucky? Or did my personal values come across to them.
Two have always kept their hair short. (One eventually enlisted and was in the 82nd Airborne Division, my 18 year old wants to enlist as a Marine). They were always clean cut all the time.
The two that have long hair, the 22 year old and the 15 year old) are very artistic and gentle natured young men. When the older of the two was 15 he dressed more gothic. He never punked out, but a lot of his friends did. They were the nicest group of kids, I loved his friends.
It wasn't until after all of them turned 18 that the three oldest got tatoos. So they respected that wish that I had about tatoos and piercings. My 18 year old and the 22 year old have a piercing.
I worked in a professional office and two of the men had waist length hair. One of them had three piercings on one ear. When I was first hired I was surprised to see this. Yet I realize that they were hired for their intelligence and experience and that far out weighed their personal choice about their appearances. Could it be discrimination not to hire one despite his qualifications based on his appearance.
More and more I see wild hair, piercings, etc. in places you would not expect it. It shows me that their is more acceptance these days. Or maybe it's just that I live on the West Coast and other places are more conservative.
I personally try not to label a person just because they appear one way or another.
Outward appearances don't mean too much to me. I don't care how clean cut a person is. I do care if they are dishonest, lazy, smelly, and all of that. And being clean cut does not make one honest, hard working, fresh smelling, etc.
I have to go back and finish reading the rest of the posts. I got caught up on Brents statements.
Having 4 teenage boys and literally dozens of their friends from all walks of life come and go in my house, all styles imaginable to say the least, I have never met a bad kid yet. Maybe it's luck, or maybe it's because these young individuals are good to the core, just simply expressing themselves.
wittils
Precious is the day... it happens only once in a lifetime.
*In response to all the entries directed towards me*
Brent: " I get a kick out of people that talk about 'freedom' for kids and how us parents have to be 'sensitive' to kids and let our 14 year olds dye their hair purple, get tattoos, get eyebrow and lip piercings, and so forth."
Princessa: I do not have a tattoo and I only have one piercing on each ear and that is the way I want it to stay
Brent: "Ask any school principal or social worker or cop that works with teenagers, they will tell you that the kids that are allowed to look or dress however they like are usually, with some exceptions, also the kids who take drugs, hang out with the wrong crowd, end up getting pregnant at 15, or going to jail, or heaven forbid, die of a drug overdose or get involved with guns."
Princessa: I am that exception, I cannot dress the way I want be cause of my religion but I wouldn’t change the way I dress because I like to wear long skirts. I come from strict backround but I do not go and dress in a bad manor in fact I wear long skirts one inch above the ankle is the highest my skirts go. I am in High School, currently enrolled in the Army JROTC program. I wear pants while in the JROTC uniform. I plan to go in to the Army Reserve and to go to college and be in financing or study cosmetology. Never tried any type of drug because I know they are not good for me so I made this decision.
Brent: "The type of kids at Columbine who shot up their school were spoiled kids allowed to dress how they liked by their "liberal" parents, they were so typical of that type of liberal mindset. The kids who join street gangs, and I don't just mean poor inner city kids, sure they dress and wear their hair however they like. These are the "Dead End Kids", social misfits, the kids who end up in psych wards, chemical dependency treatment centers, sometimes in prison or the morque."
Princessa: that is your opinion, quite frankly that is a biased decision
I am in honors classes, I have great "manners, morality and cleanliness." Where appearance is concerned" I changed my hair color because I wanted something different and out of the ordinary. I only streaked my hair so it wasn’t that drastic and I was happy, I was not considered a misfit of any type. I decided to dye my hair back because I was very proud of wearing the JROTC uniform and it could not be worn with purple, pink or green hair.
My brother is currently in the Army in Baghdad he died his hair completely blue after I did mine and it looked fine. Do you think he is a "losers or misfit". He is serving this country and he did what you would consider a losers action by dying his hair blue. I think Isla was correct with "Never judge a book by it's cover". As Lady Maria said "I do what makes me happy." I think you all owe me an apology for making false judgement on me, it’s a shame I wont be around long enough to read them. This will be my final entry like uzma said I have " low self-esteem by having personal volition knocked out" of me by people like you.
I was talking in general terms Princessa, not about specific individuals. if I insulted you a little, I apologize.
Western society, - in many folks opinions, and not just the opinions of the far right wing or religious conservatives, ---has become too liberal and undisciplined and tolerant of bad behaviour for our own good. Too much "Anything goes" including how our young people look and behave, and the two are sometimes, but not always, related. I don't know you or your family personally so I cannot make a comment about you personally. other than what you wrote,- and of course you are correct, there are many exceptions to the rule.
I was generalizing, which is what all of us are doing when we are talking on large issues about society. When we are talking about specific individuals, it may be different, there are exceptions to the general rule. If I offended you I apoligize but I do not retract what I said: that parents do have some say so in their children's lives including how they look. If children look too extreme, they will be judged by others, that is reality, whether you think that is fair or not. People that look like punks or look menacing or radical in their hair, fashion and clothing will be judged by others. It doesn't matter if you or I think it is fair, it is part of life.
I am not saying someone can't look extreme, it's a free country:- ........ but they should know how you look, and what you do, in other words, how you are perceived by others, does have some affect on you:- for example in employment, and there are other examples of how it can affect relationships.
There are consequences to how we look and act , there is cause and effect.- That's a fact!
Piercings are more common than before, especially earrings for men and noserings for women. ....however in much of the business world, extreme fashion is still not accepted.It simply depends on how extreme the fashion. There is a trend toward "wilder" fashions, yet the opposite trend is also happening in many places, including the West Coast where you and I are from. Many people I know are actually more conservative in how they dress, I have noticed that trend too.
There is also no doubt that the big cities of the West Coast are more liberal than most other places in America and the world: - they don't call it the "Left Coast" for nothing.
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This really sucks. My Dad doesn't want me with long hair - It's not the length so much as the messy shape it's in that I can't help and don't always mind, so he'd rather it short so would my Mum it seems. It really pisses me off he forced me to get a haircut on numerous occasions, but I purservered and he eventually gave up. I still have the same problem with wanting to dye my hair though.
And Lady Maria that is a nasty Generalisation - I am what people here call a freak and we suffer horrible prejudice just for looking different. All the people I know who have dyed their hair unnatural conlours are very nice and a lot kinder than most boring elitist "Well Presensted" people. If you actually KNEW some of these people it would be different. I'm sure you may have faced prejudiced for having very short hair at some point, well it feels even worse for young people as they get it all the time and are at an insecure time of their life. In the end many get pressured into being assimiliated into another boring cog in the Workforce machine - Causing the world to move backward socially.
Talented Musicians with odd hair? Flea from the Chili Peppers very often sports brigth blue/green hair and he is one of the most talented bassists around. Jonathan Davis from Korn is a great Singer - most people just consider it shouting but very few singers put that kind of emotion into their singing. Kurt Cobain was a true musicial genious, he dyed his hair numerous colours. Matt Bellamy from Muse had massive spikes very reminiscant of the Punk style - but the style of his Music is nothing like Punk (not that Punk is bad) and has a lot of classical influence in it as well as being over all alternative rock.
I myself inted to have bright colours in my hair soon enough - it's already odd looking cause it's big. It does not mean I'm a bad person. I do rebel against authority, but not in a stupid "I dopen't like teh cops tey suck" sort of way but in a more sensible philisophical way.
I think that bright colours in hair are very nice and I often find them very pretty on girls - there's only about 5 basic natural colours you can dye your hair Black, Dark Brown, Brown, Red Brown, (Orange) Red and Blonde (Since you have one already it's only 5). So why not expand the spectrum?
Researching before speaking always creates a benefit.
Lady Maria
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You are young Vineman, wait until you have to earn a living and support a family.
And no, most people aren't prejudice against me because I wear a short pixie, it is a fairly common style with women, and most people are not that prejudice against men with long hair if it's well groomed.
But if you make yourself look too unusual or too much like a punk, you have to deal with how people look at you and it could cause you problems. And working is a not just being a cog in a machine, if people didn't work we wouldn't have our goods and services that we need to survive. Society would collapse. Working is a necessity of life, it isn't just for fun, we have to work to survive as a species. But you will learn that too.
Now if you are a rock musician or an artist and can actually make your living that way (and most people can't, most people have to take ordinary jobs to feed themselves and their families), I suppose you can look more unusual.
But you are young Vineman, you will learn about all of this when you grow up, go out into the workforce, get married, start a family,etc..
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uzma wrote:
