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Diane from Canada View Drop Down
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    Posted: January 11 2000 at 9:12pm
> What?> Yelling????> Since you brought it up here about my Husband's health> scare,(low blow even for you)I will explain since I> don't want to look like what you want people to> think-a pest.> My Husband shared with someone on tlhs mailing list> about a health problem and Diane joined on and said> she would be praying.> I just wrote and thanked her. Anyone from tlhs could> read it, and see it was nothing more than a thank you> note.> Then, when this new post started to get heated up, I> went to her privately-out of respect for what Jeff had> asked us to do a couple of months ago, and that was to> keep any arguments between us private-and asked if she> meant me in her remarks, as I wasn't sure.> When she answered yes, I then wrote back to her and> said I would be apologizing for the remark-would she> please do the same for me? I wasn't writng to be her> "new pal" (or true friend, as she puts it).> If anyone was here for the posts that went on between> us, they would know that's a laughable notion!> Well, I'm sure nobody cares much anyway, but I wanted> to just make this clear. No need to worry, Diane (when> you get back)I won't be getting involved in another> tirade with you. Been there, done that.> Holly
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> Dave,> It's pointless to keep arguing back and forth-we are> just going in circles and think each other are> twisitng words around and so that could go on forever> if one of us don't stop here and not keep going around> and around on this. All I can say is that I never MEAN> to twist words around-I just read them like I think> they're meant to be read-maybe you don't mean to> either, but it just seems like it happens more than> once from what I read in your posts to some other> people's posts.> I'll just cut to your main question: "What do you> REALLY think?"> I thought it was made quite clear what I think about> this type of length. These aren't your exact words,> but you asked "is it an opinion or a> suggestion-what do I really think?" Well, that's> two seperate things that I was writing about (opinion> and suggestion)that I felt just tied in together but,> now that I've given that some thought, and you want to> know what I really think, then here it is (though I> don't think I can be accussed of holding back from> what I really think from my statements from before-I'm> not sure this is what you think I did or not-I> wouldn't think so, however).> Yes, if my suggestion (and by SUGGESTION I mean if I> was ASKED how I felt about knee length hair and if> he/she should trim it or not and I only said anything> about it then-because that's the ONLY way I would feel> that it was alright to suggest a trim) would make> someone trim up their hair to what I (and that they> agreed with me, of course-not just doing it to please> me) think looks nice (butt length) then of course I> would feel they made the right decision. Doesn't> anyone who offers advice, and the person heeds it,> feel that sense of "they made the right> move"? Why else would you give out advice (not> counting jealousy or wrong motives)if asked? So, I> would think they have enough personal confidence to> just take it as advice, not as a DEMAND. I would say,> "this is what I think, and you might not like it,> but you're asking and I have to tell the truth".> I would add that it's up to them (of course) but this> is how I see it. I WOULDN'T be keeping on them and on> them until they buckled down. It sounds like that is> what happens to you with your family, and it's not> right of them-It's not just family. It's been acquaintances, strangers, friends, colleagues,people in positions of authority (employment hiring authorities, HS track coach),and others. And having experienced it, and knowing that others (being aware mostlyof women) have endured it as well (from any of the above, as well as other sources),pressures applied to those who have long hair to have it cut seem extraordinarilypervasive in the society in which we live.> it is your choice, and it's not all that> important (to keep on you about it)anyway! So, to> answer your question from before in another post-Yes,> I do see how that would make you have a strong feeling> to defend this subject.> I look at stating my thoughts differently here on HB> politics because it's a group discussion where> everyone throws their two cents in (or centimes, here> in ol' France).> (Just in case you don't know, I'm an American living> here in France for awhile-I didn't want you to be> mislead into thinking these opinions might be a> cultural difference-though that might be true> sometimes). I thought it was o.k. to have others see> an alternate point of view, and WHY I have that point> of view(hence some statements that weren't well> taken-one I can see why, and I have apologized).> Anyway, is this not the format here?I believe the comment to which you are referring was something like "trailerpark trash." It can be insulting to those who, for whatever reason, live insuch accomodations because it's a put-down to either their choice or theircircumstance. The whole point of all of this is that such words and phrases,including "freakish" and "drags your face down," and others, are similarlyinsulting. Why should a person who enjoys having knee-length hair be made tofeel badly for their choice by having their hair described in these types ofterms?Yes, as you acknowledged before, I am sensitive. But I consider that sensitivitya gift. It helps me to discern the nature and intent of the words of others.And I saw your (and Ally's) words as being insulting and derogatory. Would itbe too much to suggest choosing words that objectively describe why you likeor dislike something without loading them full of derogation?> I have to explain> why I think the way I do about it, or else don't> comment at all-but then it wouldn't make sense to have> this discussion board. The reason I say that you sound> self-righteous is because it seems you really try to> play hardball to keep people FROM expressing their> views-you always say you respect people's rights to> their opinion, but your posts do not always jive with> that statement.When you come right down to it, Ally (and then you) started this with the"freakish" label. To me, THAT comment was the first and only expression(in this thread) of self-righteousness condemnation of people withknee-length hair as "freakish."> You just don't disagree and say> "Here's why I like knee length hair-because it> does look tasteful to me, pretty, etc.",True, I didn't state "here is why I like knee-length hair..." Teresa did avery nice job of explaining for herself why she likes it.> you go> into this "you're picking on the underdog"> attitude. I don't feel I or some others you've gotten> into heated discussions with are picking on other> people.Perhaps not directly on specific people, but yes, you are "picking on" people whochoose to have knee-length hair by indicting them as "freakish."> Yet, we all get lumped into that catergory> (not in so many words) whenever you go after us.I don't know the roster of your "team," but I will feel free to speakagainst gross insensitivity such as you have displayed, be it you oranybody else, who casts dispersion as part of a generalized insult,especially those who have my sympathies.> Maybe> that's why the posts sounded a little strong to you,> but I see how it is when someone presents an opposing> view, and so I know already I'm going to have to take> a strong stance-I mean, I'm not flame throwing by a> long-shot-I think we agree on that-but I predicted the> usual chastising (not only by you, but I thought> others might too)when I posted my thoughts.I wonder if you understand now precisely WHAT I have taken you to task for?It doesn't matter to me if you dislike knee-length hair. I doesn't matter tome if you think that long hair looks more aesthetically pleasing at hip-lengththat it does at knee-length. Had you expressed your thoughts in a tone thatwas devoid of negative judgment and condescension, my reaction would have beencompletely different.> Anyhow, Diane from Canada? I won't go there!:)> I think Diane once said you were pen-pals so as her> friend I'm sure you want to defend her, but like I> said-I don't go there.And so there you went!Yes, she and I periodically converse via e-mail and I consider her acyber-friend. But she's a big girl and she can take care of herself verywell, I'm sure. She doesn't need me to help defend her on this board.> That's all I know to say, Dave. There is one question> I have-are you planning on growing your hair down to> the knees? You mentioned your hair is to the bottom of> your derriere now. Just wondering.It would seem to be inappropriate to share my thoughts on this subjectas I certainly wouldn't want to open myself up to unwanted criticism.I think I would rather bask in the glow of the one -- and probably thelast ever -- compliment received from you about my hair.Dave
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Holly View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Holly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2000 at 9:10pm
Dave,I'm not sure why but your statements that I answer in text version are left blank when I post them-so it looks like I'm just answering myself when I put my answers to you.That's why I had to go through them on the last post and sort of "re-do" it. I'll try to fix it here again.> Did you not hypothesize that "anybody who wears> knee-length hair must be> trying to make a statement?"No-not EVERYONE. I made that plain that it may be the intent of some people. Also, I didn't say there was anything wrong with that-and I still don't.>My Statement: suggestion? Again, I don't honestly care how the person wants to look, or what> statement they are making-if they are in fact making one.> Almost slipped there on the "making a> statement" idea there, Holly.> But again, you keep saying "suggestion..."> (how do you REALLY feel?)I don't see that, Dave. Again, the key point is "I don't care" if they are or not.> Dave's statement:Why throttle Diane....>My statement: Excuse me, throttle? That is not what I did. You're so dramamtic Dave.Anyhow, Diane from Canada? I won't go there!:)>Dave's statement:Okay, you "pointedly questioned.."I think Diane once said you were pen-pals so as her friend I'm sure you want to defend her, but like I said-I don't go there.Well, hope that makes more sense now, to you and whoever else (small number, probably!:)))))is still reading our debates.Holly
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Dave,It's pointless to keep arguing back and forth-we are just going in circles and think each other are twisitng words around and so that could go on forever if one of us don't stop here and not keep going around and around on this. All I can say is that I never MEAN to twist words around-I just read them like I think they're meant to be read-maybe you don't mean to either, but it just seems like it happens more than once from what I read in your posts to some other people's posts.I'll just cut to your main question: "What do you REALLY think?"I thought it was made quite clear what I think about this type of length. These aren't your exact words, but you asked "is it an opinion or a suggestion-what do I really think?" Well, that's two seperate things that I was writing about (opinion and suggestion)that I felt just tied in together but, now that I've given that some thought, and you want to know what I really think, then here it is (though I don't think I can be accussed of holding back from what I really think from my statements from before-I'm not sure this is what you think I did or not-I wouldn't think so, however).Yes, if my suggestion (and by SUGGESTION I mean if I was ASKED how I felt about knee length hair and if he/she should trim it or not and I only said anything about it then-because that's the ONLY way I would feel that it was alright to suggest a trim) would make someone trim up their hair to what I (and that they agreed with me, of course-not just doing it to please me) think looks nice (butt length) then of course I would feel they made the right decision. Doesn't anyone who offers advice, and the person heeds it, feel that sense of "they made the right move"? Why else would you give out advice (not counting jealousy or wrong motives)if asked? So, I would think they have enough personal confidence to just take it as advice, not as a DEMAND. I would say, "this is what I think, and you might not like it, but you're asking and I have to tell the truth". I would add that it's up to them (of course) but this is how I see it. I WOULDN'T be keeping on them and on them until they buckled down. It sounds like that is what happens to you with your family, and it's not right of them-it is your choice, and it's not all that important (to keep on you about it)anyway! So, to answer your question from before in another post-Yes, I do see how that would make you have a strong feeling to defend this subject.I look at stating my thoughts differently here on HB politics because it's a group discussion where everyone throws their two cents in (or centimes, here in ol' France).(Just in case you don't know, I'm an American living here in France for awhile-I didn't want you to be mislead into thinking these opinions might be a cultural difference-though that might be true sometimes). I thought it was o.k. to have others see an alternate point of view, and WHY I have that point of view(hence some statements that weren't well taken-one I can see why, and I have apologized). Anyway, is this not the format here? I have to explain why I think the way I do about it, or else don't comment at all-but then it wouldn't make sense to have this discussion board. The reason I say that you sound self-righteous is because it seems you really try to play hardball to keep people FROM expressing their views-you always say you respect people's rights to their opinion, but your posts do not always jive with that statement. You just don't disagree and say "Here's why I like knee length hair-because it does look tasteful to me, pretty, etc.", you go into this "you're picking on the underdog" attitude. I don't feel I or some others you've gotten into heated discussions with are picking on other people. Yet, we all get lumped into that catergory (not in so many words) whenever you go after us. Maybe that's why the posts sounded a little strong to you, but I see how it is when someone presents an opposing view, and so I know already I'm going to have to take a strong stance-I mean, I'm not flame throwing by a long-shot-I think we agree on that-but I predicted the usual chastising (not only by you, but I thought others might too)when I posted my thoughts.No-not EVERYONE. I made that plain that it may be the intent of some people. Also, I didn't say there was anything wrong with that-and I still don't.>My Statement: suggestion? Again, I don't honestly care how the person wants to look, or what> statement they are making-if they are in fact making one.I don't see that, Dave. Again, the key point is "I don't care" if they are or not.> Dave's statement:Why throttle Diane....>My statement: Excuse me, throttle? That is not what I did. You're so dramamtic Dave.Anyhow, Diane from Canada? I won't go there!:)I think Diane once said you were pen-pals so as her friend I'm sure you want to defend her, but like I said-I don't go there.That's all I know to say, Dave. There is one question I have-are you planning on growing your hair down to the knees? You mentioned your hair is to the bottom of your derriere now. Just wondering.I wish you and everyone a safe Independence Day!Holly
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> Well, I'll tell you, I really debated it over in my mind whether or not to dignify> these postings with a responseAt this point, me too...> -well, here it goes:> I'm pretty exhausted from the spankings I got here on HB!:) Looks like (except> for some condemnation thrown Ally's way) I'm kind of written off as a sassy,> opinionated, young lady, by Dave.The "sassy and opinionated" description was of a *hypothetical* womanthat might rain on your parade, Holly. (I wasn't describing you)> Big yawn, :o No, Noreen I don't think youre a social pariah..please! Gee, I think> it's understood that what I meant by socially acceptable was not that you were> some kind of outcast. I don't even see where you could read that thought in to> what I wrote. I do think you and Dave are very sensitive, however. As for the> trailer remark, I said I was truly sorry- I don't know what more to do about that.> At least I apologized. I'm not going to back and soften down my other remarks,> and I don't really know if deep down you want me to do that Noreen, but I do> think that you Dave, might.No. I'm not seeking an apology.> You're both (and everyone here at HB) allowed an opinion, and to so state> it, and so am I. I know, you both said that I'm entitled to an opinion.> Then please, won't you both let me have one, without getting all bent out> of shape over when I do (or anyone else,Dave). You can comment on how you> feel about it,Agreed. A reasonable level-set.> but maybe berating a person's opinion should be kept off of here. Dave,> I feel this applies mainly to you,Hmm... I'm sorry if you have felt any of my remarks have been directed towardyou as a person (not my intent!), but doesn't politics include such tacticsas pointing out objective flaws in the other's points if perceived to be flimsy?> more than Noreen, although Noreen,> you seem quite pouty about all of this, so it's interesting that you refer> to me as a bit "high-schoolish". I certainly don't feel I was berating anyone by> just stating what I felt about knee length hair. Ally is the one who said freakish> in the first place, and I am agreeing with her by saying it myself. For the record,> I also think super short buzz cut hair on women are a bit freakish looking, too.> AS I KEEP SAYING, and what you all here keep a blind eye too, is that it's a> PERSON@S CHOICE. I'm not telling anyone to DO anything. I'll write it again:> CHOICE. Does it finally get through now, Dave, Noreen, Diane, whoever else?> I've never said my thoughts on what constitute hair length are what everyone> else should go by-I was just telling what I think is the start of long hair. I know> others probably differ. You ARE allowed to, of course! I never said my way or> the highway, as implied by Dave. Land sakes!:)>> Oh and Dave, although I've been warned it's pointless to try and reason with> you,I'm curious to know who said this but of course it isn't reasonable of meto ask. Would that mean, then, that I am capable of reason? :-)> just let me say this. When I said that I wouldn't say things to people on the> street I meant just that. ( Also, and I didn't say this before, I wouldn't even say it> to a friend unless she asked me to be honest in what I really thought)This seems to be the consensus "ethic" here (with which I am in agreement).Not that it's a rule or law!> However, last time I checked this was a place to comment on your likes or> dislikes. If it makes you feel better to say that I'm calling myself ignorant> by doing just that, then I guess there's a lot of us ignoramous's out here!:)> Besides, you make statements, what does that say for you?This appears to have been a misunderstanding. When you wrote:> Some people just do not like it, and although it is ignorant of them to be so> loudmouthed, maybe the people who do have knee length hair or longer have hair> that looks like it needs a major trim. I don't know why other people give a> care what another person does with their hair, but they do sometimes. That's> why I say, take a long hard look in the mirror, be honest with yourself. If> it's dragging down your looks, why not cut it off to the derriere?It was not clear to me before *where* (in what context) you say this -- on thisboard, or in "real life," solicited or not. You clarified that this is youropinion (which you give in real life only if/when requested). At this momentI would like to say that I don't consider myself the "thought" police. If youwanted to, it is within your rights to "give" unsolicited opinions. And itwould be within mine to object. And within yours to ignore my objections.And so on and so on...> I'm sure you want an example (you> usually do) and honestly, I don't have one. I have other interests besides> keeping notes on what you say, but I've read your highly voiced opinions on a> number of subjects. At least I don't twist words around to suit my discussions.I don't accept the validity of this assertion. I will feel free to point outflaws and inconsistencies in other's statements if I so wish.> Oh, and I try to pay attention, too. TERESA was the person who said it suits> her - I just reiterated on it. (You asked why I asked that about "suits> personality"-I got that from her posting! It's her statement, really!)>> Dave's statement: Again, no, this is not what Teresa said. She said that she> perceives beauty differently than the mainstream. While the mainstream may> not think highly of knee-length hair, I'm guessing that she thinks it is attractive> according to her own perception of beauty. I understand this perception and> appreciate this expression of beauty very much.>> Well, your wrong Dave-she did say that having this hair suits her personality,> she doesn't wear it long for attractivenss,as a first priority. So, though she did> go on to say these other statements, I still had a valid reason to comment on that.There's a difference between (a) a person saying that their own hair suits them,and (b) someone making a declaration about others that "their hair suits theirpersonality." I'm just pointing out the difference.> Dave's statement:Why throttle Diane....> Excuse me, throttle? That is not what I did. You're so dramamtic Dave.> Anyhow, Diane from Canada? I won't go there!:)Okay, you "pointedly questioned" her...> > > My statement here:> > > If it's another statement the person> > > is making (by wearing their hair like this), then that> > > is up to them. What am I saying-for any reason it's up> > > to the person, but don't expect everyone to find it> > > wonderful.> >> > Dave's question:> > What is the basis for your assumption that people who wear knee-length hair> > are trying to make some statement? Why then would you not assume that any> > and every body is trying to make a statement with their hair length? Where> > do you draw the line on who is and who isn't trying to make a statement,> > and why?>> My answer to that is: from what I have read by posts from people like Teresa,> Dawn, and others.I hear them saying that it is not their intent to make a statement. What I hearfrom them is that they have it that way because they like it. When asked why,and they say "because they like it," does that mean that they have it to "makea statement?" The answer I hear is "no."> Besides, what did I say wrong here? I don't get it. I wasn't> "drawing any line"-you read too much in to it.Did you not hypothesize that "anybody who wears knee-length hair must betrying to make a statement?"> > > My statement:> > > If the person is keeping it knee length for> > > beauty, and finds that all she gets is negative> > > comments, then maybe snipping off a few inches would> > > make a world of difference.> >> > Dave's statement:> > I've known plenty of women with gorgeous healthy long hair who have received> > boatloads of criticism... and have subsequently buckled to that pressure to cut> > their hair. We've discussed this sub-issue before on this board, but my point> > here is that just because some or many people criticize one's choice doesn't> > necessarily mean that the criticism is deserved.>>> I agree with you Dave-read my Mom's story on "Hair Bloopers" on how she> was pressured by friends to cut her gorgeous hair off, because after she did it,> they asked "why did you cut it?".Sorry to hear about your mom. It's an oft-told story.> That should clear up this next accusation:>> Daves Statement:Again, as I asked Ally, who are you, Holly, to presume to be> THE arbiter of what constitutes having "taste?">> In case it hasn't cleared that up for you Dave, let me just point out that I am> speaking from a mainly aesthetic point of view. I made that clear in another> post. It was JUST and ONLY a SUGGESTON-NOTHING MORE.Well, which is it? A privately-held opinion, shared perhaps with others onthis board, or a suggestion? (a suggestion, after all, being something directedto another person...) I thought you said you didn't do that? (I believe you,just don't understand why you are suggesting).> Unless the person truly loves having scraggly ends ( IF IT IS TRULY THAT> WAY, AND THEY KNOW IT IN THEIR HEARTS- I want to emphasize), why not trim> some off?Interesting. I once knew a woman who had such hair. Trimming off the endsto make them un-scraggly was a subject not open for discussion. The pointis that she had a reason for keeping that which appeared to some others todetract from the aesthetic appearance, but it isn't anybody else's businessto question her reason(s) for wanting to keep her hair just as it is.> Ally made the same point in one post or another-I can't remember if it was> this thread or another thread. I don't see what is so heartless in just making a> suggestion? Again, I don't honestly care how the person wants to look, or what> statement they are making-if they are in fact making one.Almost slipped there on the "making a statement" idea there, Holly.But again, you keep saying "suggestion..." (how do you REALLY feel?)I expressed my thoughts on the topic. Although I too prefer hair that hasbeen neatly trimmed, I realize that it isn't my place to question somebodyelse's decision to keep their hair untrimmed.> Just suggesting, because it came up in other posts (not on this thread)> how people might actually be right about how it looks"Right?" No... it's a subjective determination.> -not that they are just being jealous, although I'm sure (like I wrote> before-please pay attention-or, if you are paying attention, stop twisting> words around-or omitting them when reposted)I have not twisted your words nor taken them out of context.> that there are those who ARE jealous of extremely long hair, because they> want it too, and because they don't , they make contrary remarks. I'm sure> that my length isn't the only length that some people want (you said in> your post that I seem to think that).On this we agree.> Gee, your not really being fair here, Dave, nor with this statement:>> Dave's statement: Gee, how is this, Miss "hip-length hair> My statement: What was that about being ignorant, Dave?> What was that about being ignorant, Dave?What? You accused me of twisting words around or omitting them, yet youjust did this yourself.The "ignorant" comment was in the context of what *you* had posted earlierwhere you said that "some people do not like knee-length hair, and althoughit is ignorant of them to be so loudmouthed... that's why I say, take a longhard look in the mirror... why not cut it off...?" Again, from your words,it wasn't clear what you meant by "that's why I say..." and whether you meantit is your opinion, or your actions (and if it were the latter, you wouldhave pointed the "ignorant" label at yourself). You later clarified thatyou were stating your opinion only, thus eliminating the self-incriminating"ignorant" description.> Oh, and in another sentence I'm self-righteous too. Interesting> descriptions coming from you, Dave.>> Reading from all the past threads here on HB Politics, I can't imagine> how you don't find yourself fitting the self-righeous description.Well, to see why, let's just look at what you said...Of knee-length hair, among other things, you said: "I'm going to be reallyblunt: It looks like you don't have taste. So, if a person is doing it forbeauty, I would think over these comments."What would think, Holly, of somebody who described your chosen hair lengthas a reflection of "not having taste?" Would you be wowed by their obviouswisdom and oh-so-sharp sense of taste and beauty -- and then comply and cutyour hair? Or would you dismiss their evaluation because it just isn'tconsistent with what YOU like and with YOUR OWN sense of style and taste?You, with hip-length hair, target those with knee-length hair. Certainlythere are those with shorter hair who would view hip-length hair insimilar terms that you view knee-length hair.I don't seek to discourage, dissuade, or disempower those who have hairthat is inconsistent with my ideals of beauty, from having that hair -- andthat includes this board. You, however, seem to have no qualms aboutcasting dispersion on those who make choices inconsistent with your owntastes within this forum.Sure, you don't do those things in real life, but you have shown us herethat these are your beliefs.What you call "blunt," I call "insensitive."> Miss Hip Length Hair-that's actually kind of funny:))Glad you liked it.> All I know is that if I had been saying hown wonderful knee length hair was, I> would be applauded as being "classy" "Noble" -read some of these posts by> knee-length apologists and how they are credited for these attributes by other> people-nothing wrong with that, except that when someone (not only just me)> has a different view, they are cast off as something very negative.Compliments, support, and expressions of appreciation are positive.Put-downs ("drags your face down," "has no taste," etc) are negative.It is my own wish to be positive and supportive of others, and also to notbe (and to request others to consider not being) a negative influence onothers. If that makes me self-righteous, then so be it.> Note: I never called anyone ignorant or self-righteous (In the original postings,> that is).Explained...> I did not attack a person's character-but you have, and to an extent so> has Noreen.I have tried to show you that some of your attitudes are negative.> At any rate, this is all I can really say about this subject. Before I jump off and> take a break from all of this, can someone give me an e-mail address for a> discussion board for really important subjects-say, a government politics> discussion board?Consult your favorite search engine.> I think now my time and energy for debating is best saved> for something REALLY worth debating over. Anyway, it's getting to be the> same old arguments here over and over again. Boring!I wish you well, Holly.Dave
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I've always thought that there is absolutely no question on one's hair length, female or male. I know people with extremely long hair who look absolutely georgeous, because their hair is healthy and clean...why deny someone's pleasure of having beautiful hair when it happens to be past the bum, to the knees, or even longer?I myself try to go for a length which, by some people, will be considered way too long for anyone, let alone for a man, and of course I am expecting a lot of comments, but not only negative ones...
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Sorry ,I don't know how but I have omitted some of Dave's statements, and therefore the first posting I sent to Dave and Noreen may not make sense. I'll try to correct it here.Dave's statement: Again, no, this is not what Teresa said. She said that she perceives beauty differently than the mainstream. While the mainstream may not think highly of knee-length hair, I'm guessing that she thinks it is attractive according to her own perception of beauty. I understand this perception and appreciate this expression of beauty very much.My statement: Well, your wrong Dave-she did say that having this hair suits her personality, she doesn't wear it long for attractivenss,as a first priority. So, though she did go on to say these other statements, I still had a valid reason to comment on that.Dave's statement:Why throttle Diane....My statement:Excuse me, throttle? That is not what I did. You're so dramamtic Dave. Anyhow, Diane from Canada? I won't go there!:)My statement:Gee, your not really being fair here, Dave, nor with this statement:Dave's statement: Gee, how is this, Miss "hip-length hairMy statement: What was that about being ignorant, Dave?My statement: I agree with you Dave-read my Mom's story on "Hair Bloopers" on how she was pressured by friends to cut her gorgeous hair off, because after she did it, they asked "why did you cut it?". That should clear up this next accusation:Daves Statement:Again, as I asked Ally, who are you, Holly, to presume to be THE arbiter of what constitutes having "taste?"My answer:In case it hasn't cleared that up for you Dave, let me just point out that I am speaking from a mainly aesthetic point of view. I made that clear in another post. It was JUST and ONLY a SUGGESTON-NOTHING MORE. Unless the person truly loves having scraggly ends ( IF IT IS TRULY THAT WAY, AND THEY KNOW IT IN THEIR HEARTS- I want to emphasize), why not trim some off..Dave's statement: It's so nice to know that you consider my opinions and voice to be part of some "collective..." presumably a 1960's-style "collective," Holly?My statement: Well, I think that would be nice! I like that era, most of it, anyway.Dave's statement:So what, anybody and everybody who disagrees with you is supposed to sit here in silence while you espouse your repulsive attitude with impunity?My statement: No, that's your job, Dave. Reading from all the past threads here on HB Politics, I can't imagine how you don't find yourself fitting the self-righeous description.
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Besides,> "trailer-trash" was a comment made by a MAN!Didn't see original post, so I'll give you that one Holly. Guess I'll just let you two fight it out. For the record, I'm attracted to knee length or even longer hair, but:1) It has to look healthy without tons of split ends or looking too jagged. I dated a woman with thigh length hair in college, but felt she could have used a 4 inch trim. She went for 10 instead (to mid butt, or bum for you Brits). I broke up with her because she was bossy and didn't seem to care about what I wanted, not because of that. If too jagged (very uneven length), a blunt cut to a length where it's naturally all even. Seeing such hair flow, catch the light or swirl around in the wind is a real turn on. Hair that long also seperates a woman from the crowd2) Actually, the hair flattening a bit or draping on the shoulders is a bit of a turn on for me. If I just see from the shoulders up, it makes me curious as to how long the hair actually is, and I find myself stealing glimpses. I've become somewhat of an expert on this, even without seeing all the hair. But other things come into play if I'm interested in meeting (eyes, personality, decent teeth) I agree, overlong nails are kind of gross. Hair doesn't have the same effect on me, but most guys I know who say shorter just don't want it in the way in intimate moments.3) The woman herself has to like it. I don't want to hear complaints about it and what she's doing for me by having it. Constant complaining, headaches or her distaste for it make me err on the side of the scissorsHow about a new topic? Chest hair!!! Sean Connery types (hairy baby, yeah!!!) or Leonardo DeCaprio (hairless with peach fuzz a cat could lick off)?Dan
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What?Yelling????Since you brought it up here about my Husband's health scare,(low blow even for you)I will explain since I don't want to look like what you want people to think-a pest.My Husband shared with someone on tlhs mailing list about a health problem and Diane joined on and said she would be praying.I just wrote and thanked her. Anyone from tlhs could read it, and see it was nothing more than a thank you note.Then, when this new post started to get heated up, I went to her privately-out of respect for what Jeff had asked us to do a couple of months ago, and that was to keep any arguments between us private-and asked if she meant me in her remarks, as I wasn't sure.When she answered yes, I then wrote back to her and said I would be apologizing for the remark-would she please do the same for me? I wasn't writng to be her "new pal" (or true friend, as she puts it). If anyone was here for the posts that went on between us, they would know that's a laughable notion!Well, I'm sure nobody cares much anyway, but I wanted to just make this clear. No need to worry, Diane (when you get back)I won't be getting involved in another tirade with you. Been there, done that.Holly
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Well, I'll tell you, I really debated it over in my mind whether or not to dignify these postings with a response-well, here it goes:I'm pretty exhausted from the spankings I got here on HB!:) Looks like (except for some condemnation thrown Ally's way) I'm kind of written off as a sassy, opinionated, young lady, by Dave.Big yawn, :o No, Noreen I don't think youre a social pariah..please! Gee, I think it's understood that what I meant by socially acceptable was not that you were some kind of outcast. I don't even see where you could read that thought in to what I wrote. I do think you and Dave are very sensitive, however. As for the trailer remark, I said I was truly sorry- I don't know what more to do about that. At least I apologized. I'm not going to back and soften down my other remarks, and I don't really know if deep down you want me to do that Noreen, but I do think that you Dave, might. You're both (and everyone here at HB) allowed an opinion, and to so state it, and so am I. I know, you both said that I'm entitled to an opinion. Then please, won't you both let me have one, without getting all bent out of shape over when I do (or anyone else,Dave). You can comment on how you feel about it, but maybe berating a person's opinion should be kept off of here. Dave, I feel this applies mainly to you, more than Noreen, although Noreen, you seem quite pouty about all of this, so it's interesting that you refer to me as a bit "high-schoolish". I certainly don't feel I was berating anyone by just stating what I felt about knee length hair. Ally is the one who said freakish in the first place, and I am agreeing with her by saying it myself. For the record, I also think super short buzz cut hair on women are a bit freakish looking, too. AS I KEEP SAYING, and what you all here keep a blind eye too, is that it's a PERSON@S CHOICE. I'm not telling anyone to DO anything. I'll write it again: CHOICE. Does it finally get through now, Dave, Noreen, Diane, whoever else? I've never said my thoughts on what constitute hair length are what everyone else should go by-I was just telling what I think is the start of long hair. I know others probably differ. You ARE allowed to, of course! I never said my way or the highway, as implied by Dave. Land sakes!:)Oh and Dave, although I've been warned it's pointless to try and reason with you, just let me say this. When I said that I wouldn't say things to people on the street I meant just that. ( Also, and I didn't say this before, I wouldn't even say it to a friend unless she asked me to be honest in what I really thought) However, last time I checked this was a place to comment on your likes or dislikes. If it makes you feel better to say that I'm calling myself ignorant by doing just that, then I guess there's a lot of us ignoramous's out here!:) Besides, you make statements, what does that say for you? I'm sure you want an example (you usually do) and honestly, I don't have one. I have other interests besides keeping notes on what you say, but I've read your highly voiced opinions on a number of subjects. At least I don't twist words around to suit my discussions. Oh, and I try to pay attention, too. TERESA was the person who said it suits her personality- I just reiterated on it. (You asked why I asked that about "suits personality"-I got that from her posting! It's her statement, really!)Dave's statement:Well, your wrong Dave-she did say that having this hair suits her personality, she doesn't wear it long for attractivenss,as a first priority. So, though she did go on to say these other statements, I still had a valid reason to comment on that.Gee, I never thought of that! Well, Dave, I didn't know you were a psychology major. Why does it sound like I'm worried about being perceived as trailer-trash, just because I don't care for the length? (I don't get it, and I'm not really looking for an answer here either, so don't bother).Excuse me, throttle? That is not what I did. You're so dramamtic Dave. Anyhow, Diane from Canada? I won't go there!:)My statement here:> If it's another statement the person> is making (by wearing their hair like this), then that> is up to them. What am I saying-for any reason it's up> to the person, but don't expect everyone to find it> wonderful.Dave's question:What is the basis for your assumption that people who wear knee-length hairare trying to make some statement? Why then would you not assume that anyand every body is trying to make a statement with their hair length? Wheredo you draw the line on who is and who isn't trying to make a statement,and why? >My answer to that is: from what I have read by posts from people like Teresa, Dawn, and others. Besides, what did I say wrong here? I don't get it. I wasn't "drawing any line"-you read too much in to it.My statement:If the person is keeping it knee length for> beauty, and finds that all she gets is negative> comments, then maybe snipping off a few inches would> make a world of difference.Dave's statement:I've known plenty of women with gorgeous healthy long hair who have received boatloads of criticism... and have subsequently buckled to that pressure to cut their hair. We've discussed this sub-issue before on this board, but my point here is that just because some or many people criticize one's choice doesn't necessarily mean that the criticism is deserved.>I agree with you Dave-read my Mom's story on "Hair Bloopers" on how she was pressured by friends to cut her gorgeous hair off, because after she did it, they asked "why did you cut it?". That should clear up this next accusation:In case it hasn't cleared that up for you Dave, let me just point out that I am speaking from a mainly aesthetic point of view. I made that clear in another post. It was JUST and ONLY a SUGGESTON-NOTHING MORE. Unless the person truly loves having scraggly ends ( IF IT IS TRULY THAT WAY, AND THEY KNOW IT IN THEIR HEARTS- I want to emphasize), why not trim some off? Ally made the same point in one post or another-I can't remember if it was this thread or another thread. I don't see what is so heartless in just making a suggestion? Again, I don't honestly care how the person wants to look, or what statement they are making-if they are in fact making one. Just suggesting, because it came up in other posts (not on this thread) how people might actually be right about how it looks-not that they are just being jealous, although I'm sure (like I wrote before-please pay attention-or, if you are paying attention, stop twisting words around-or omitting them when reposted) that there are those who ARE jealous of extremely long hair, because they want it too, and because they don't , they make contrary remarks. I'm sure that my length isn't the only length that some people want (you said in your post that I seem to think that). Gee, your not really being fair here, Dave, nor with this statement:What was that about being ignorant, Dave? Oh, and in another sentence I'm self-righteous too. Interesting descriptions coming from you, Dave. Miss Hip Length Hair-that's actually kind of funny:))Well, I think that would be nice! I like that era, most of it, anyway.No, that's your job, Dave. Reading from all the past threads here on HB Politics, I can't imagine how you don't find yourself fitting the self-righeous description.Well, on a lighter note (somehow a lighter note must be inserted here, however tough that might be) it looks like I'm classified to a higher school grade (high school comment by Noreen) than when some were thought to be the "day care center" of HB!:))SEE: Amy's post -"What a Mess". Like the name of this thread should be.All I know is that if I had been saying hown wonderful knee length hair was, I would be applauded as being "classy" "Noble" -read some of these posts by knee-length apologists and how they are credited for these attributes by other people-nothing wrong with that, except that when someone (not only just me) has a different view, they are cast off as something very negative.Note: I never called anyone ignorant or self-righteous (In the original postings, that is). I did not attack a person's character-but you have, and to an extent so has Noreen.At any rate, this is all I can really say about this subject. Before I jump off and take a break from all of this, can someone give me an e-mail address for a discussion board for really important subjects-say, a government politics discussion board? I think now my time and energy for debating is best saved for something REALLY worth debating over. Anyway, it's getting to be the same old arguments here over and over again. Boring!Holly
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other the cold shoulder for a while. But> someting would come along that we both agree on and> all would be forgotten. Now if you were married you> would know that...:-)Yeah, like this posting!:)) I don't think I or Noreen have handled or said anything much different than the men have in the past here on HB. Besides, "trailer-trash" was a comment made by a MAN! I just repeated it (and have apologized for it-is this going to follow me around forever?).Well, so much for cattines just being a woman thing.Take care,Holly
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> Okay, let's stop hiding behind the " I respect> your opinion and I'm only curious" routine. You> sound in the rest of this post like your angry, and if> you are, (and you obviously are)then just say so,> instead of "I feel 'moved' enough to come out of> lurker mode". It's alright to get say how you> really feel. I just don't like all the game playing> and hiding behind words. I wish some people would just> get on with being a little more up front, because> people can read between the lines anyway.Noreen has answered this very well.> Well, before I go any further, I want to make clear> the way I think about the "people who make nasty> remarks" subject:> 1: If you mainly receive many compliments, and then> get the ocaasional "why don't you cut it?"> remark, chances are it's a jealousy problem with that> person, and therefore, don't pay any attention. Now,> this doesn't mean that if you have extremely long> (going towards the knees and longer) that they are> jealous of that. (I'll get to that in a minuite). I'm> referring here to derriere length or shorter. That's> because most people agree that that length of hair is> acceptable-and enviable.Why do you believe that this specific length represents a generally-believed boundary between acceptable and unacceptable?In my opinion (in general), another person's choice made of their own free will (free from duress or coercion) is an acceptable choice for themselves.> Yes, there are people who may> think shorter is better, and are not thinking in> jealous terms.Some of these people are also guilty of criticizing long hair. Been there, experienced it. It's always so funny. As if they are just so convinced that they are doing me a huge favor by trying to talk me out of my long hair. What a joke.> However, I'm willing to bet that if the> hair is truly attractive, then most of the remarks are> made out of jealousy.It would seem then that if a woman who likes long hair but has short hair and so then criticizes a long-haired woman out of jealousy, that she is mis-directing her energy toward being nasty instead of doing something positive about what she perceives as the other woman's attention gains due to her hair. The expression of jealousy is not only a cop-out, but defeats both parties.> This is assuming the remarks are> made by women-although the man in your life (not> referring to your man, Noreen) may not like all the> attention you're getting, and that's a different> jealousy all together, but may make the same remarks.That type of reaction is a reflection of the man's insecurity in his woman's love for him. It's HIS problem. Expressing negativity toward her about such attention she receives will certainly not help his position in her eyes.> 2 A: Still refering to the hip length and> "shorter" long hair: If you are getting a> lot more nasty remarks than compliments, it may be> that it's time to take a very honest look in the> mirror and see if it still looks attractive or is it> time to think about a new style. Get someone you can> really trust to be honest with you, who might be able> to help you think things through.> B: If you have longer than derriere length hair, the> same idea still applies. However, keep in mind that,> right or wrong, this long of hair isn't as socially> acceptable as the other types of long hair I referred> to. So, I think when nasty comments are made about> this length of hair, it could be anything from their> true feelings of not caring for it to jealousy because> they wish they could grow their hair long. When you> think about it, it could even be that some people> don't like what they assume are your politics (this is> in referral to those who associate long hair with the> summer of love and all that the politics of having> long hair carried years ago). In the case of men> having long hair, this might especially be true.Hmm... perhaps some people express their assumptions about my politics based on my appearance. Hey, she looks like a Democrat! And he looks like a Republican! And I'll bet that guy over there, I'll bet he is a Libertarian! Yes, I know you're talking about hair politics. But the idiocy of the assumption is the same. If anybody assumed that my long hair was an indication of an adherence to the "underground" sociological ideologies of the 1960's, they would be way off base.> Whatever the case may be in people's negative> feelings, whether it be jealousy or their true dislike> for long hair, it's always ignorant to say it out> loud, out on the street, or even> UNSOLICITED"advice" from someone who isn't> that close to you to be able to say those things with> your best interest at heart. (I capitolize> "unsolicited" because the> "Personals" posting I responded to WAS> soliciting people's opinions).Although I occasionally peruse the Hair Boutique Personals board just to see what happens and what people say out there, I realize that its purpose is not a political discussion board, so I refrain from such discourse there.> Now, if your purpose is to not be fashionable, but> just to suit your personality, then that's another> matter. I guess you're not really trying to be> attractive as your number one priority-that's what> Teresa said in not so many words.Again, no, this is not what Teresa said. She said that she perceives beauty differently than the mainstream. While the mainstream may not think highly of knee-length hair, I'm guessing that she thinks it is attractive according to her own perception of beauty. I understand this perception and appreciate this expression of beauty very much.> So if that is the> case, then the only comments that should bother these> people are the ones that refer to their> personality-not how they look with long hair, because> physical beauty isn't their first priority.> I know I'm probably going to get "yelled" at> for this next statement I'm about to make, but that's> the price you pay for being honest instead of> politically correct-I think that most women (I'm not> referring to Teresa here)are kidding themselves when> they say they are only doing it (growing hair long to> any length) for themselves. Yes, we do it for> ourselves, but it also goes hand in hand (at least> most of the time) with wanting to look attractive to> men. Wait, let me go put on my hardhat-I'm about to> get stomped on!:) Well, maybe not, but the point is> this:why would we go to all the effort of properly> taking care of our long hair if we didn't like the> admiration! It's nice to have admiration from women,> but I sure like it when men like my hair-and there is> not a thing wrong with that. I guess I'm just sick of> seeing the P.C. answer all the time of only doing it> for ones self. As a woman I know that most of the time> that answer is bull. Why do we do it for ourselves?> Looking attractive to ourself is the first reason but> the VERY close second reason is to look attractive for> others. I'd say it's hand in hand. Think about it-if> life was different and most men had a preference for> short hair instead of long, you would find women> having short hair as something wonderful to attain> instead of long hair.> I also wonder why if hair is just something a person> does for "personality"reflection and not to> be fashionable, then why do those people surf often to> a site that offers a bunch of beauty tips for hair and> how to wear it in fashionable styles?> Noreen, that's why I said what I said in the> "personals" posting. I thought this site> (and I still think it is) was primarily how to have> terrific hair-hence the tips and so forth.That's the purpose of the "Original Hair Talk" board.> Lately, the> politics board looks like it's fast becoming a 60's> propaganda board.Gee, how is this, Miss "hip-length hair?" Don't you see that the issue in contention here is not hair length, but attitude?> At the point that I wrote to this> posting on "Personals", all that seemed to> be said by other posters to this woman seeking advice> was how she should keep her knee length hair. Since> everyone else is so forthright with their thoughts on> why she should keep super long hair, I didn't see any> reason to hold back my thoughts. You can believe this> or not, but the real reason I said the second-hand> comment about this long of hair looking like> trailer-trash was because I truly wanted to help the> woman see that people outside of this site have way> different opinions than what was being cited here.> Like I said, I thought that this site was primarily a> site to help people look good with their hair... so you "helped" this woman to associate long hair with a mental image of being like trailer-trash. I am dumbfounded at your approach to "helping" this woman.-that> means seeing fashion tips a lot of the time on the> site. So assuming the woman was here to get help for> that reason, I thought that she and others should know> what having hair like that makes people think> sometimes.It depends on how you inform her of some people's opinions. Really, though, how can saying something so generally cruel-sounding be helpful?Look, no one is bashing (Yet) Diane from> Canada for saying how she feels about very short hair,> and that has probably hurt someones feelings. I don't> feel superior (as was implied by you , Noreen) in that> I just said what I thought someone should keep in> mind. I mean, she was asking-I didn't just> "offer" my opinion out of nowhere. Anyhow, I> thought that was what these boards were for-stating> our opinions. If it isn't, Karen and Jeff better> rename these boards to something else!:))> Also Noreen, know this: I grew up in a mobile home,> from a toddler to around 11 years old. My family were> not what society would consider trailer trash at all.> We wern't poor (not that that makes you trashy! I know> many people who have lot of money who would be> considered real trailer trash) and were quite> fashionable, really. It's just a nineties expression> to say you don't look as though you have taste, and> not too knowledgable about fashion.There is a difference between saying "less knowledgeable about fashion" and "trailer trash." The former is more specifically descriptive. The latter is loaded with condescension.Noreen is right. The choice of our words is very important, and which words you choose will determine how you and your attitude are perceived by others, Holly.> Probably since I> spent my young childhood in a mobile home, I shouldn't> say that expression-even second-hand, but it does> describe in a fast way what I think are a lot of> people's view on this type of hairstyle.I wonder if your origins have fueled your desire to avoid being perceived as anything which might have you so labelled in this type of derogatory manner?> Also, I'm not> being snobby about "farm-girls", but let's> face it, their fashion sense don't usually come to> mind when one thinks of elegance and sophistication(I> mean the ones that actually look the part-not girls> that grew up on a farm but have fashion sense;So how can one tell the difference in origin? If a person assumed origin based on desire to adhere to fashion, they would be wrong about the "city slicker" slacker or a "trendy farmer's daughter."I> thought people would just know what I meant-does> EVERYTHING have to be explained and spelled out to> some of you people?)"you people" -- Well now, isn't that special -- and insulting?It's so nice to know that you consider my opinions and voice to be part of some "collective..." presumably a 1960's-style "collective," Holly?> Anyway, the point I was trying to> make was with this type of hair you can only do a> small amount of styles, and I've only ever seen these> styles either just hanging there or in a ponytail. The> woman sounded in her post like she was looking for> something more for her hair, fashion wise. Also, to> some people, it DOES look a bit freakish.Yet you throttle Diane from Canada for saying that she thinks that "something is missing." This would be akin to somebody (on the "other" side) saying something like "there is a tremendous amount of something." Quite a bit different from a description such as "freakish."> Just as long> nails that curl do to some people. I feel that way> about both. However, I would never say that a person> doesn't have a choice to wear their hair how they> want. I've only ever said it's down to personal> choice.Yeah, sure. Tell that person to go ahead and make that personal choice to keep their knee-length hair after you rip them apart and describe them as freakish and trashy and tell them that their hair drags their face down and that they would look much better if they just trimmed that hair up to derriere-length....> It's also another person's choice to feel how> they do about it (and short hair, too)and express> their opinion on a board that's meant for such> discussion.> Obviously there is a long hair bias on this discussion> (?) board, for the most part.Obvious? Hmm... my "bias," if you will, is to question that which is inflammatory, derogatory, cruel. I know full well that your hair is hip-length. So if I were expressing a "long hair bias," why would I be arguing against you? If I were biased, wouldn't I be *mindlessly* propping up anything spoken by any long-haired woman, including you?> Now I'm painted like a> stuck up snob-know it allNo, that's not the impression of you I have. I hear a very opinionated person who would, in a public forum, cast dispersion on anybody who doesn't adhere to your own personal sense of style and "appropriateness."> because of the comments I> made over on personals, but someone else can say all> they want about a short-haired look on a person, and> is not chided (so far) by the same person who just> chided me for saying what I did about knee-length> hair.See answer to same issue several paragraphs above.> Political correctness at it's best!So what, anybody and everybody who disagrees with you is supposed to sit here in silence while you espouse your repulsive attitude with impunity?
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> That being said, I also know the other side of the> coin-what it feels like to have a jealous women be> hostile in the way they act towards me, and it's not> fun. I just take that as a compliment, since I know if> I didn't look good they wouldn't pay any mind to me.> However, they don't say anything outright to me, as in> the case of some people who get outright mean> comments, or comments that are not meant to be heard.> This is where I agree with you Ally.> I think at least probably some of the time, people> really do mean what they say as far as super long hair> goes.Holly,I have numbered your sentences in the paragraph below)> (1) Some people just do not like it, and although it is> ignorant of them to be so loudmouthed, maybe the> people who do have knee length hair or longer have> hair that looks like it needs a major trim. (2) I don't> know why other people give a care what another person> does with their hair, but they do sometimes. (3) That's> why I say, take a long hard look in the mirror, be> honest with yourself. (4) If it's dragging down your> looks, why not cut it off to the derriere?Within your first sentence, you say these two things: (a) that it is ignorant ofpeople who do not like super-long hair to be loudmouthed, and (b) that for someof them it looks like it needs a major trim. Can you understand how, within thisone sentence, you have just described yourself as being ignorant?Whether or not a person who has super-long hair "needs" a trim is not necessarilya factual determination, but rather is your opinion on what *you* think some ofthose people *ought* to do.In your second, third, and fourth sentences, you repeat the same self-condemnation.In your second sentence, you repeat that you "don't know why other people give acare what another person does with their hair," and then turn around in the nexttwo sentences and prescribe a course of action designed to dissuade and discouragea person from having super-long hair that YOU dislike.Further, on the Hair Politics board, the notion that hair can "drag down one'slooks" has been broached. Not only is this notion a subjective one, but thelegitimacy of it has thus far failed to hold up to objective dissection.I would like to make one other point about your fourth sentence. In it, youpresume to state that a person should invalidate the choice of a given lengthif it fails to measure up to *your* one definition of one of possibly manyreasons another may have for wearing it at that length. My question to you is,on what reasonable basis do you profess to be in a position to make suchdeterminations for others?> Why does> that extra foot or whatever make that much difference> (in that it is considered "very long")? Most> people think very long is waist length. The way I> figure it, the "shortest" that you can call> long hair "long hair" is right above chest> level, and when it starts getting close to the waist,> then you can start calling it "very long".Please do tell me, why should a person who chooses to have "super-long" hair becompelled to conform to *your* definition of the shortest length that you defineas "very long" hair? Regardless of the fact that people will differ on theiropinions of what constitutes "very long," why should you want to make anotherperson feel restricted from choosing to wear their hair longer than you mightlike to see?> Then you have Teresa, who doesn't choose long hair> primarily for beauty. If you have another reason for> it, then I guess I can see why you grow it to knee> length. You aren't making a beauty statement.Interesting. I read Teresa's a little bit differently. What I read from whatshe said is that she views beauty in a different way than is defined by thebeauty industry and perceived by the vast majority. But the beauty industrygenerally avoids promoting the desirability of things that it cannot sell --specifically, one such thing being natural super-long hair.Among other points Teresa made, she said that the beauty of very long hair ismore apparent when it's in movement. I would like to add that the beauty ofthis movement cannot (by definition) be captured in a static picture.> I'm not> sure how knee length hair suits a personality,I'd like to hear your views on the connection between a given hair length andhow well it "suits a personality." I can't help but imagine how fraught withstereotypes they would be.> I guess the people> I think of doing it for other reasons are Native> Americans and people from the 60's.I understand that this is your view but it's very narrow. Maybe very longhair is just simply for people who like it? Besides, the 60's are 30 yearsin the past. Why does that mean that very long hair could not or shouldnot be appreciated in today's times?> but some people that post> seem to think the hair protests are still going on,> from the way they answer their posts.Please be aware of where you are. You are on a Hair Politics discussion boardthat is accessible world-wide. The fact that there is any discussion at allis proof that there are differences of opinion. That some people are so unawareof how inflammatory and condescending some of their expressed opinions are, yetcannot understand why others might find them objectionable, is to me unbelievable.Yet here you are, Holly, professing that "if your hair is dragging down your looks,why not cut it off to the derriere? It's freakish-looking!" Are you beginningto understand why your words are offensive?> I don't see why> the long hair comments from people on the streets are> happenning so much to men- I thought that was more> accepted now. Unless I'm missing something, that time> is over now. Of course, if the hair is exceptionally> long on a man, then I guess that will provoke> comments. So I guess(and now I'm addressing what I> wrote that I would address later in my post)that's why> Dave that you get so hostile sounding with everybody> who in the least little comment opposes very long> hair?It's not just the criticisms that I receive, but the criticisms that aregenerally directed at many/most people with long hair. I know how unpleasantit is and I am sympathetic to others who have endured similar harassment.And I really don't care what others (in general) like as their favorite length.What I dislike is unsolicited criticisms designed to dishearten, discourage,and dissuade another person to from what is their choice, and in the past 25years I have seen and heard of countless examples of such disrespect givento those who have long hair. What I don't understand is why it seems to beso important for so many people to dissuade those who have long or very longhair from having it?> Let me just say something: Your hair is beautiful, but> it is very long by guy standards. That isn't a slam,> it's just a fact. So you're going to have to expect> comments from the man on the street, sometimes. I just> wish you wouldn't get so defensive with everyone here> who has a limit to what they think should be long> enough for hair to grow to.You've completely missed the point, Holly. I can easily accept that differentpeople have different standards what THEY PREFER FOR THEMSELVES, but what Idislike are what I perceive as attempts, subtle and not-so subtle, from bothyou and Ally, that seek to discourage, dissuade, and dishearten a person fromtheir choice to wear their hair longer than either of YOU prefer to see!> I understand WHY you get> defensive, but maybe you could try to calm down a> little.I'm not so sure you really understood before why I seemed "defensive."Do you have a better understanding of my feelings now?> I think lots of people like your hair. No need> to be defensive!:))My hair is well past my waist. In fact, it's now to the bottom of my derriere.And so my hair would now seem to be longer than your (and Ally's) definition ofa supposedly "acceptable" long hair length. So if you were to see a picture ofme today, might you think that my hair is no longer beautiful, but has nowbecome "freakish?"You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but if you were to decide now, orin the future as my hair grows longer, that you then decide that you dislikemy hair because it has become longer than your definition of the "maximumacceptable hair length," I would be pleased if you (and others) would refrainfrom advising a course of action commensurate with YOUR dissenting opinionand contrary to my own choice for myself.Besides, how would you feel if the shoe were on the other foot, such thatsome sassy, opinionated younger woman came along and declared that "I lovelong hair. Shoulder length is long -- anything longer, like mid-back tohip-length, is just nasty, wicked, horrible, trashy, and makes her look 30years older than she really is and just drags her face right down to theground and she ought to have her head examined...." And what if you heardsimilar (but toned-down) versions of such criticism aimed at you by family,friends, colleagues, acquaintances, strangers, magazines, TV makeover shows,hairstylists, etc, etc... How do you think that all of this criticism wouldmake YOU, and Ally, feel about your own appreciation for your own mid-backor hip-length hair? It wouldn't be so nice now, would it?> I have seen knee length hair a few times in my life.> In and of itself, it's pretty, but not on human heads.> To me, it just looks a bit freakish.Holly, your claim that knee-length hair looks "freakish" seems to be ageneral slam against the personalities of those who make that choice.> So, I think it's a fair question to ask why> someone would think that having hair that long is> pretty, and state why they think it is.> At least, it's fair enough to ask here on a discussion> board that is made for this type of discussion!Absolutely, it is a fair question! But you burdened the issue with yourdisempowering criticism ("it looks freakish," "If it's dragging down yourlooks, why not cut it off to the derriere," etc). If you're really curiousto understand the "why," then why not just float the question out therewithout adding your not-so-subtle condemnations?> There really isn't a lot you can do with hair this> long. It just sort of hangs there.This assumption seems to be false -- at least for Teresa and Noreen. AndI imagine it's false for others who have super-long hair, too.> I'm going to be> really blunt: It looks like you don't have taste. So, if a> person is doing it for beauty, I would think over> these comments.Again, as I asked Ally, who are you, Holly, to presume to be THE arbiter ofwhat constitutes having "taste?" From all of your words, I get the impressionthat you are quite the arbiter of self-righteous criticism.> If it's another statement the person> is making (by wearing their hair like this), then that> is up to them. What am I saying-for any reason it's up> to the person, but don't expect everyone to find it> wonderful.What is the basis for your assumption that people who wear knee-length hairare trying to make some statement? Why then would you not assume that anyand every body is trying to make a statement with their hair length? Wheredo you draw the line on who is and who isn't trying to make a statement,and why?I'm sure that reasonable people know better than to expect everyone tofind their own appearance to be "wonderful."> If the person is keeping it knee length for> beauty, and finds that all she gets is negative> comments, then maybe snipping off a few inches would> make a world of difference.I've known plenty of women with gorgeous healthy long hair who have received boatloads of criticism... and have subsequently buckled to that pressure to cut their hair. We've discussed this sub-issue before on this board, but my point here is that just because some or many people criticize one's choice doesn't necessarily mean that the criticism is deserved.So you believe that people who like and have knee-length hair should just"fall into line" after being weakened by criticism? That seems pretty heartless, Holly.Dave
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Hehehe, Dan. That is really cute. And I really needed the laugh right about now. But really, I don't think Holly or I have been very catty. I do think we are both firmly stuck in our opinions and we are both making each other accountable for what we say and how we say it. After all in a forum like this it is important to be concise and clear. I don't think either one of us has slung any mud. At least my computer area still looks pretty clean. But who knows what tomorrow holds...;-) And wouldn't this be a boring place if everyone agreed with each other and never argued their point of view? Besides, a woman would never press that button. We might scratch each others eyes out or tear each other's hair out or even give each other the cold shoulder for a while. But someting would come along that we both agree on and all would be forgotten. Now if you were married you would know that...:-)Take care,Noreen> I'm away for a couple of months, and the board is now> full of catty remarks and mudslinging about trailer> parks.> Makes me feel real good if we ever have a women world> leaders:> Ms. President: You know, just woman to woman, I really> think it's time you did something with your hair> Ms. Premier (icily, but trying to maintain a> conversational tone): Whatever do you mean, dear?> Ms. President (matter of factly): It's so dated, but> I'm not surprised really, your country is somewhat> backward> Ms. Premier: At least our women have virtue, and are> not peddling their wares in taverns!> Ms. President: White trash!!! (presses the button)> Ms.Premier: Slut!!! (presses the button)> Is this the image you want to convey? You make me glad> I'm single.> Dan
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Hi Holly,>Okay, let's stop hiding behind the " I respect your opinion and I'm only curious" routine. You sound in the rest of this post like your angry, and if you are, (and you obviously are)then just say so, instead of "I feel 'moved' enough to come out of lurker mode". It's alright to get say how you really feel. I just don't like all the game playing and hiding behind words. I wish some people would just get on with being a little more up front, because people can read between the lines anyway.Sorry, Holly but I really was curious. I mean why would an adult feel they have to insult a group of people just to make a point? It seemed kind of high schoolish. Unless of course you meant unsophisticated, farm girl, trailer trash as a compliment. In which case I apologize for the misunderstanding. You can be polite and still get your point across. It just takes a bit of maturity. Of course you call it hiding behind words or being PC. Did you get out of my post that I was angry? Good because I was. See, no hiding there. You understood exactly the feeling I wanted you to. Would it have made you more comfortable if I called you names? Well sorry, thats not my style. I do not hide behind my words, but I do use them to my advantage whenever I can. And I do believe that I can make my point come across without being rude or as you call it up front.> B: If you have longer than derriere length hair, the same idea still applies. However, keep in mind that, right or wrong, this long of hair isn't as socially acceptable as the other types of long hair I referred to.Excuse me? Now we are socially unacceptable? Dear me, what will my friends and associates do when they find out I am a social pariah because of my hair. Well I guess I wont be asked to attend any parties this year! Im sorry. I am making fun and thats not nice, but I really am trying to lighten this up a bit. However, do you see what I am reading from what you write. I see that you feel that the only reason someone would say anything negative about you hair is out of jealousy. That you hair is enviable while if someone should say something negative about my hair then thats ok because I choose to have a hair length that is socially unacceptable. Seriously, Holly, my hair has never been the cause of my being excluded from anything. It has never held me back in any of my jobs. My friends dont even notice it any more, they just accept it as a part of me. I dont think that it is really so unacceptable as you think it is for woman. But I do think that men do have a harder time of it and for that I am sorry and I hope that it does change soon for them. We should all have the same opportunity to express ourselves in how we look.>Whatever the case may be in people's negative feelings, whether it be jealousy or their true dislike for long hair, it's always ignorant to say it out loud, out on the street, or even UNSOLICITED"advice" from someone who isn't that close to you to be able to say those things with your best interest at heart. (I capitolize "unsolicited" because the "Personals" posting I responded to WAS soliciting people's opinions).Holly, I couldnt agree with you more. And I never said that your comments to Ann were unsolicited. I just took exception to how you did it.>Now, if your purpose is to not be fashionable, but just to suit your personality, then that's another matter. I guess you're not really trying to be attractive as your number one priority-that's what Teresa said in not so many words. So if that is the case, then the only comments that should bother these people are the ones that refer to their personality-not how they look with long hair, because physical beauty isn't their first priority.I dont think thats true. Just because it is not the number one reason I grow my hair doesnt mean that being called hideous, freakish, trashy, or any other negative expletive you can think of wont bother me. I am human and I do have feelings. But what gets me through is the support network I have. I am also a strong woman who has the self confidence to be able to put it into perspective. Do you really think that because fashion is not my #1 reason to have knee length hair I am shallow?>I know I'm probably going to get "yelled" at for this next statement I'm about to make, but that's the price you pay for being honest instead of politically correct-I think that most women (I'm not referring to Teresa here)are kidding themselves when they say they are only doing it (growing hair long to any length) for themselves. Yes, we do it for ourselves, but it also goes hand in hand (at least most of the time) with wanting to look attractive to men.No Holly, Im not going to stomp you. You are right, when I was 17 and just starting to date my husband it was a priority to be attractive to him. He loved long hair and I was more than glad to do that for him. And though I still want him to think me attractive, I have found that over the years he does. No matter what, he loves me just as I am. Lets face it you dont stay together for 25 years if the only thing holding you together is your looks. No matter how hard you try they do diminish. But when you truly love and accept someone those things just dont mean quite as much. The physical beauty is nice but the inner beauty is much more sustaining. That goes for my hair too. I know he would still love me if I cut my hair. And I know me. If I really didnt want long hair no matter how much I might want to be attractive to him I would cut it. So you see, I CAN say that I do grow my hair this long for me. Anything else that comes because of it is just icing on the cake. Besides if what you say is true and my hair is socially unacceptable, freaky, and just plain unfashionable then in no way could anyone think it is attractive. So why else would I grow it if not for myself?>I also wonder why if hair is just something a person does for "personality"reflection and not to be fashionable, then why do those people surf often to a site that offers a bunch of beauty tips for hair and how to wear it in fashionable styles?Do you really think that people are so one dimensional that just because fashion is not the number one reason they have long hair that they dont want their hair to look nice? I never said that I dont care how my hair looks, that I dont want it to be in the best condition it can be, or that when I go out I dont want to be able to style it in different ways.>Noreen, that's why I said what I said in the "personals" posting. I thought this site (and I still think it is) was primarily how to have terrific hair-hence the tips and so forth.No disagreement there. But does that mean that just because my hair is knee length I shouldnt care about having terrific hair? Or is it just that you think that its impossible for me to have terrific hair at my length. If so, then I hate to disappoint you. I do have terrific hair. It is in great condition and mostly because of this site and the other wonderful people here. I have learned so much here and I consider some of the people that post here to be the best cyber friends you can have.>You can believe this or not, but the real reason I said the second-hand comment about this long of hair looking like trailer-trash was because I truly wanted to help the woman see that people outside of this site have way different opinions than what was being cited here.Holly, I have no doubt that your intentions were good and honorable towards Ann. But when you give no consideration to those you hurt in the process then your good intentions get lost in the message. Words are powerful tools. They have been known to start wars and they have been known to stop them. One should always take care in how they use them.Look, no one is bashing (Yet) Diane from Canada for saying how she feels about very short hair, and that has probably hurt someones feelings.Youre right. They may have hurt someones feelings. And if they did then that person has every right to express that fact to Diane. But Diane has not hurt my feelings so why should I feel it necessary to confront her?>I don't feel superior (as was implied by you , Noreen) in that I just said what I thought someone should keep in mind. I mean, she was asking-I didn't just "offer" my opinion out of nowhere.Holly, I never meant to imply that you felt superior. I do, however, think that when you generalize to make a point such as most woman feel, all woman do,(fill in the blanks as you want) and you put your feelings into the blanks. it comes across as a little self centered. Its like just because you feel that way everyone else must feel that way. Im not saying that is how you are, I am just saying that is how you come across to me. Read my last post very carefully. I did two things you may not even be aware of. First, I made sure that when I quoted you I used almost the whole paragraph. I wanted to make sure that you and everyone else knew that I wasnt taking phrases out of context and turning them to suit my own ends. Secondly, I tried very hard not to generalize. Every issue I brought up I only told you how I felt and how they may or may not pertain to me. I almost never included everyone with knee length hair except at the very end. And even then it was because I have first hand and person knowledge of how some of these other people feel from e-mail that we have traded. Every opinion is entirely my own and no one else. I have no right to speak for anyone else, and to generalize in any way would be doing just that.>It's (Trailer Trash) just a nineties expression to say you don't look as though you have taste, and not too knowledgable about fashion. Probably since I spent my young childhood in a mobile home, I shouldn't say that expression-even second-hand, but it does describe in a fast way what I think are a lot of people's view on this type of hairstyle.Whether you grew up in a mobile home or not its a term that is offensive. Its a generalization that insults a whole group of people. Maybe it is PC to not use words or phrases like that, and maybe we do read too much into it. But I personally believe that the world is a better place when we dont use terms like that.>does EVERYTHING have to be explained and spelled out to some of you people?)Hehehewell I guess you have found out that it does. You should never assume that anyone is going to read your mind and know what you are trying to say. Their perspective of things will most assuredly not be the same as yours. I dont know if you have ever done this but it was an exercise that we had to do in a communications class I once took. Have someone tell you how to smoke a cigarette, from opening the pack to taking the first puff. Do exactly what they say and remember you have no idea how it is done. You will be surprised. The first thing they will tell you is to open the pack. They wont tell you how to do it and you are not suppose to know what to do without them telling you. After you fumble around a bit and dont get it open they will get the idea. The next instruction will not be as vague but it still will probably not be detailed enough to get the pack open. However, by the time you get to the point of lighting the cigarette they will be even more precise in what they want you to do and there will be no chance of you misunderstanding. Communication will have taken place.>Anyway, the point I was trying to make was with this type of hair you can only do a small amount of styles, and I've only ever seen these styles either just hanging there or in a ponytail.I dont agree with you there. Tell me of a style that you can do with your length of hair but you dont think I can do, and I bet I can do it with mine. Even a French Twist. I am only limited by my imagination, not by my hair.>The woman sounded in her post like she was looking for something more for her hair, fashion wise. Also, to some people, it DOES look a bit freakish. Just as long nails that curl do to some people. I feel that way about both.Obviously there is a long hair bias on this discussion (?) board, for the most part. Now I'm painted like a stuck up snob-know it all because of the comments I made over on personals, but someone else can say all they want about a short-haired look on a person, and is not chided (so far) by the same person who just chided me for saying what I did about knee-length hair. Political correctness at it's best!Holly, I know you dont believe me, but I do respect that you and I will never feel the same on this subject. I know that I will never change your mind as you will never change mine. But as you have the right to your opinion I also have the right to mine and I will voice it if so moved. I tried very hard not to come across as attacking you in my last post. I didnt want to come across that way. I try very hard to approach things logically and calmly and I do try to keep my emotions out of it, but I am human and they do slip out at times. As I said before, I have no bone to pick with Diane. That is between her and anyone that might be offended by anything she says. And I am sure that she can handle it if it ever does come up. It is not my place nor do I want to be champion of all the downtrodden. I have enough issues of my own to confront. As for how you feel you are painted, well I can only say that we are solely responsible for how others view us. If you feel that others are viewing you in the wrong light then take a look at what they are seeing and recolor it.Take care,Noreen
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I'm away for a couple of months, and the board is now full of catty remarks and mudslinging about trailer parks.Makes me feel real good if we ever have a women world leaders:Ms. President: You know, just woman to woman, I really think it's time you did something with your hairMs. Premier (icily, but trying to maintain a conversational tone): Whatever do you mean, dear?Ms. President (matter of factly): It's so dated, but I'm not surprised really, your country is somewhat backwardMs. Premier: At least our women have virtue, and are not peddling their wares in taverns!Ms. President: White trash!!! (presses the button)Ms.Premier: Slut!!! (presses the button)Is this the image you want to convey? You make me glad I'm single.Dan
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> First of all the sorry belongs to all the very long hair ladies. You are not the only one that done things.For the past while many very abusive and degrading comments were made toward very long hair women and I know that some of them are very hurt. A good hint is Noreen letter. I have been participating in web sites with her for the past two years and she has never given any opinon. It is very obvious that it hurts plus someone that also email me asking why cruel things are being said.The sad part is the question that Ally ask is very interesting. I would personally like to know why people have this gain to grow their hair very very long but now we will not know because of the fear of abuse.I really don't appreciate your comment that you made to Noreen about me about bashing short hair which is false . It is so false that it is to stupid to even comment on it. I am pro choice but common sense would be if I was really for short hair for myself I would have short hair. Very logical and simple to understand. There was nothing there to be hurt by. For the past while i have been trying to be peaceful with you Holly. I even defended you on a web list and you appreciated it. I am even praying for your husband health and this is how you repay me by starting a stupid rumor that I am bashing short hair ladies. My sister, my mother, my friends and some of my friend on the web site all have short hair and I care for them and think they are all very feminine. YOu have hurt my feelings but trying to start a lie.Also do not send any more emails to me because it is obvious to me that you are not a true friend to me. I don't care for yelling emails.The base of my disappontment is the lack of respect toward other human beings. I really didn't care about what hair lenght. YOu accuse people of not being direct . Well Holly you got your wish because I am the most direct person you might come across and I am a strong believer in being at peace with people and respecting.People tend to give very abusive comments and cover it up with the word opinion.I am gone for weeks now so you can fight by yourself.
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Sorry, people, didn't mean to call myself HOLLY HOLLY!:))Also the one line should read: What gets me angry here is what gets me angry about society in general; that if you don't go along with what is politically correct, then you must BE a jerk-kind of attitude.Holly-just one name this time!:)
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Diane,If what I said is too strong of words, (and maybe it was but my intention was TOTALLY NOT to hurt anyone's feelings, so I'm truly sorry if I did do that) than you take back what you said about me not having any class. You know what though? Not a lot of you people showed much class to JerkyFlea. If any newcomers came around during that time, I would be emabarrassed to know what they thought of all that if I was some of you posters.I think the only people that get compliments about class around here are those who grow ther hair 10 feet and get all self righteous about it to people who don't even have a big problem with their being that long in the first place!The fact is, I honestly don't care how anyone wears their hair-I've said it before, I'll say it again, it's a personal choice. I was just adding my two cents on a discussion board where this is just what you do. I really do have more important things to get riled up over, but what gets me angry here is what gets me angry about society in general; that if you don't go along with what is politically correct, then you must a jerk-kind of attitude.It goes on here all the time and it's getting a little stupid. I also don't like the hiding behind words game that goes on with some people, like in Noreen's rsponse to me. If you're upset about something, say so. It's o.k., at least when you're posting to me, and you might as well because people can read between the lines anyway.Like I said before, I was really only trying to help those who seem to not have a clue as to why they get the remarks that they do. Some knee-lengthers honestly seem like they don't why others make the comments they do, and I thought that maybe they should hear about those opinions, because then they'd know. I do happen to go along with that opinion, just like I do for super-long nails and punk-colored hair. I just wouldn't go around saying it out loud and embarrass the person on the street with my opinions.I could have just said "tasteless" and not "trailer-trash" and I'm sorry for using too strong of a word. However, I think others should now think how they perform with other people and start apologizing, too.One other comment-this short hair and 'something missing'-couldn't that hurt someone's feelings, too? Think about that, Diane.HollyHolly
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Diane from Canada Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2000 at 9:09pm
>> Dear Holly:Everyone has one time or the other slipped on a banana peel and said things that we all have regretted later on. Yes you and I have made up. No hurt feelings period.Now to be your friend and you like people who are direct with you I will have to say you slipped on a banana peel with some comments you made. Not with me as I am not a very long hair woman but I know for a fact that there are a few ladies with very long hair that are very hurt by your comments. Please read all your post and really think about it. Yes you are not the only one that said cruel things. I am hoping that some others will also take their responsibility and say they are sorry to the very long hair ladies.The diffirence between you and me is that I only said that I feel something is missing when I see a very short hair lady. I never said it was freakish or anything insulting. I didn't say that some men I know think that short hair on women look too much masculine etc.or used words like trailer trash etc. I don't share that opinion. Short hair can be very feminine but in my opinion only my eyes tend to feel that something is missing.When we give our opinions on this board we really need to be extra careful on how we give it more than in real life because the other person can't see our faces or hear our voices.a hug for you Holly. Please do the right thing.
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