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Going to Great Lengths

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Ally View Drop Down
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    Posted: January 11 2000 at 9:09pm
This is a subject I've wanted to broach for a long time. Holly, thanks for the "in." ;)I adore long hair. It's a big part of my beauty aesthetic, and it's something I crave for myself. BUT...When I say "long," I mean anywhere from a few inches below the shoulders to the middle of the back....maybe to the waist. After that, it's all downhill in my opinion, and that goes for anyone of any age. Can someone please explain the allure of knee-length hair?I don't see how that extra foot or two adds beauty. In fact, I think it can look almost freakish, like someone's nails grown to the point where they're curling backward. Okay, not gruesome like that, but still pointless (to me).It's hard to give hair that long any lift at the roots, any movement, or any discernable style. Often, the hair becomes an entity to itself and looks out of place on the wearer.I can see it occasionally in artistic depictions: Maybe you remember when Uma Thurman played Venus in "The Adventure of Baron Munchausen." But I think it works only with period costumes. Botticelli's Venus is stunning in her rise from the clam shell, but put that woman in jeans or a business suit, and she looks pretty frumpy.The only beauty icon I can think of with hair that long is Crystal Gayle, and she's not the fantasy of any man I know. (I'm not saying that pleasing men is the /point/, but it's a popular topic of discussion here.)Ally
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> This is a subject I've wanted to broach for a long> time. Holly, thanks for the "in." ;)> I adore long hair. It's a big part of my beauty> aesthetic, and it's something I crave for myself.> BUT...> When I say "long," I mean anywhere from a> few inches below the shoulders to the middle of the> back....maybe to the waist. After that, it's all> downhill in my opinion, and that goes for anyone of> any age. Can someone please explain the allure of> knee-length hair?> I don't see how that extra foot or two adds beauty. In> fact, I think it can look almost freakish, like> someone's nails grown to the point where they're> curling backward. Okay, not gruesome like that, but> still pointless (to me).> It's hard to give hair that long any lift at the> roots, any movement, or any discernable style. Often,> the hair becomes an entity to itself and looks out of> place on the wearer.> I can see it occasionally in artistic depictions:> Maybe you remember when Uma Thurman played Venus in> "The Adventure of Baron Munchausen." But I> think it works only with period costumes. Botticelli's> Venus is stunning in her rise from the clam shell, but> put that woman in jeans or a business suit, and she> looks pretty frumpy.> The only beauty icon I can think of with hair that> long is Crystal Gayle, and she's not the fantasy of> any man I know. (I'm not saying that pleasing men is> the /point/, but it's a popular topic of discussion> here.)> Ally
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I've always thought long hair looks its best no longer than waist length. Actually the perfect long-hair length (in my opinion) is Nell's on "Ally McBeal". :-)
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Hey Ally,It's terrific that you know what you like and what you don't.I myself don't particularly see the aesthetic appeal of hair on a womanthat is so short that it barely exists, but I realize that this is myopinion and that opinions vary.You criticize very long hair as not having "lift at the roots, anymovement, or any discernable style."(a) Why is it so important that hair have "lift" at the roots? Somethink "lift" is important, some don't!(b) No movement? Are you kidding? When a woman with very long hairwalks that hair is moving all over the place!(c) No discernable style? What pray tell defines "style?" And why isone definition of style *better* than another? It's purely subjective,my dear.Frumpy?! Perhaps Venus is a working woman by day and a long-hairedgoddess by evening...Crystal Gayle? Honey, the woman is still drawing big audiences -- ofboth genders and all ages.Reality check complete, I think.Dave
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Diane from Canada View Drop Down
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>Hello:What I find interesting from both you is your opinion about really long hair.I find it interesting because I wouldn't be able to have such an opinion of what I would think looks better because in 37 years I seen very very few ladies with very long hair down to their knees or past. I am wondering how many ladies have you personally encouter with extremely long hair?In my city and all my life the longest popular length I have seen is the middle of the back and a few down to their waist.On very rare occasions I seen a lady with hair down to her buns but I have only seen once a lady with hair down to her knees.People have opinion but in reality how can any of us have them as very very long hair is rare.Thanks>>
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Hi Ally.You've posed a very interesting question. I'd like to give my perspective on it as someone who's chosen to have knee length hair for over three years now.I guess the first point is that everyone has a different definition of long. It's frequently been debated as to just what "qualifies" as long hair. For me personally the hair has to be nearing the waist (within a few inches) for me to really consider it long. Anything that touches the sholders isn't short, it's just not really long yet either.Secondly, I will have to agree with several of the other posters here. It's kind of difficult to really judge how very long hair looks without having it or knowing someone pretty well who does. Pictures are frequently not all that flattering. For me much of the beauty of long hair lies in the movement or in the versatility of styles. Typically in pictures you see it just hanging there to show off the length. This is not how most of us wear very long hair most of the time.The third point that I would like to make is that not everyone has the same standards of beauty. I don't buy into a lot of what the fashion industry tries to tell us constitutes beauty. The vast majority of women simply cannot look like models. Yes, some models are very beautiful, but they are only one type or version of beauty. There are many other types of beauty out there too.My most important point addresses your question of how "that extra foot or two adds beauty". This brings out what I see in most of the posts that ask why anyone would ever choose to have hair much longer than hip length or even waist length. To me, long hair isn't something that I choose just for beauty. Yes, I want to be attractive, but it's not the most important thing in the world to me. I choose very long hair because it suits me; it reflects a part of my personality. It's not about "style" as perceived by the general public at all. My friends like and know me for who I am, and no one else really matters. I'm not out to impress anyone or to be "fashionable". I just want to be happy and loved for who I am by those that I love. For some people having very long hair is simply the right choice.I also find it very interesting how you think very long hair works only with period costumes. I do wear period costumes (many different periods, all before 1600) on a fairly frequent basis. I agree that very long hair can look quite stunning with some of the styles. However, I don't feel that I should be "condemned" (without a free choice) to having short hair just because I live in a time when short to medium length hair is more fashioable and fits in with social norms better.I apologize if any of this sounds argumentative, it's not menat to be at all. I just wanted to give a different perspective on the issue. Thanks for bringing up such an interesting topic to discuss.Teresa
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Hi,First off, you're welcome, Ally !:) I am pleased to see that except for maybe one exception (I'll address that in a minuite)everyone has very calmly aprroached this subject. Refreshing!:)) I myself approached this subject first in the personals section (I wrote about this in the posting I titled "Father Knows Best")and it was well taken there but when I approached in in a mailing list, I about got my head cut off from some of the responses I received!:)I also have to agree with you on another posting, that does relate to this subject, about people's comments on long hair(when they think you can't hear them). I'm hoping that I don't sound conceited here, because that's not my intention. I have very long hair, to my hips, and I don't get nasty comments-very much the opposite is said to me, or told to my family or friends, that they love my hair, and other wonderful compliments.That being said, I also know the other side of the coin-what it feels like to have a jealous women be hostile in the way they act towards me, and it's not fun. I just take that as a compliment, since I know if I didn't look good they wouldn't pay any mind to me. However, they don't say anything outright to me, as in the case of some people who get outright mean comments, or comments that are not meant to be heard. This is where I agree with you Ally.I think at least probably some of the time, people really do mean what they say as far as super long hair goes.Some people just do not like it, and although it is ignorant of them to be so loudmouthed, maybe the people who do have knee length hair or longer have hair that looks like it needs a major trim. I don't know why other people give a care what another person does with their hair, but they do sometimes. That's why I say, take a long hard look in the mirror, be honest with yourself. If it's dragging down your looks, why not cut it off to the derriere? Why does that extra foot or whatever make that much difference (in that it is considered "very long")? Most people think very long is waist length. The way I figure it, the "shortest" that you can call long hair "long hair" is right above chest level, and when it starts getting close to the waist, then you can start calling it "very long".Then you have Teresa, who doesn't choose long hair primarily for beauty. If you have another reason for it, then I guess I can see why you grow it to knee length. You aren't making a beauty statement. I'm not sure how knee length hair suits a personality, but like my Dad said after the joke he made that I wrote about, it's a very personal choice. I guess the people I think of doing it for other reasons are Native Americans and people from the 60's. Now please don't get me wrong, I wasn't a teenager/young adult in the 60's early 70's (but I think the music was great) It was more fun (music, t.v., entertainment in general was just more fun than now) but some people that post seem to think the hair protests are still going on, from the way they answer their posts. I don't see why the long hair comments from people on the streets are happenning so much to men- I thought that was more accepted now. Unless I'm missing something, that time is over now. Of course, if the hair is exceptionally long on a man, then I guess that will provoke comments. So I guess(and now I'm addressing what I wrote that I would address later in my post)that's why Dave that you get so hostile sounding with everybody who in the least little comment opposes very long hair?Let me just say something: Your hair is beautiful, but it is very long by guy standards. That isn't a slam, it's just a fact. So you're going to have to expect comments from the man on the street, sometimes. I just wish you wouldn't get so defensive with everyone here who has a limit to what they think should be long enough for hair to grow to. I understand WHY you get defensive, but maybe you could try to calm down a little. I think lots of people like your hair. No need to be defensive!:))I have seen knee length hair a few times in my life. In and of itself, it's pretty, but not on human heads. To me, it just looks a bit freakish. I made the same comment about comparing it to nails that are so super long (I've seen this in person, too)that they curl over on the "personals" posting. The first reason I think that a person is growing her hair this long for (and it's usually the primary reason)is for beauty. So, I think it's a fair question to ask why someone would think that having hair that long is pretty, and state why they think it is.At least, it's fair enough to ask here on a discussion board that is made for this type of discussion! Not fair if the person is a total stranger, seeing you on the street.There really isn't a lot you can do with hair this long. It just sort of hangs there. I'm going to be really blunt: It looks like you don't have taste. That goes for anything: fingernails; clothes. So, if a person is doing it for beauty, I would think over these comments. If it's another statement the person is making (by wearing their hair like this), then that is up to them. What am I saying-for any reason it's up to the person, but don't expect everyone to find it wonderful. If the person is keeping it knee length for beauty, and finds that all she gets is negative comments, then maybe snipping off a few inches would make a world of difference.Sorry I wrote so long, but wanted to say explain how I felt.Thanks,Holly
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You know, Ally I often wonder those very things myself. Weird isn't it? I love long hair and I'm growing my own but really, really long hair does sort of give me the creeps. I don't know why. But then again I really have never seen ultra-long hair that is in beautiful condition either, and maybe that has something to do with it. I often see women with ultra long hair that would be attractive only if they had about a foot (or more) of ragged splits and breakeage cut off. It's possible that the freakish aspect comes when a woman goes beyond the desire to have long beautiful hair to just having extreme length no matter what. And then again, maybe it's just the extreme-ness itself ie., your comment about the difference between having long nails and having 10-inch scary nails that bend under. A friend sitting here just likened it to the cat phenomenon--the difference between someone who has a cat in the house and someone who has 100 cats in the house. I wonder is it possible to have too much of a good thing?
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Diane from Canada View Drop Down
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>>For me the weird part is seeing someone with very short hair. I cannot get used to it. For me seeing this is like they have something missing . I guess it is like the opposite of how you feel.>
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Hi All,Just want to put in my $0.02 on this issue. Having knee length hair (the length that seems to be of topic though Im not sure why this length brings out the reactions that it does on this site) I figure I might have something to say on some of these issues. First I want to say that I agree with what Theresa said and I wont bore you all with just saying the same things.>I myself approached this subject first in the personals >sectionYes you did, and though I wanted to bring up some issues that post raised, I didnt because I didnt think the personals board was the place to address the issues. But since youve brought it up here I would like to address some of those issues.>Ive often wanted to write about my feelings on hair >length past the derriere (which is what I have) but really >didnt want to hurt anyones feelings or give off the >impression that Im jealousNow, I want you to understand that I fully support your right to your own opinion. I respect that you and I will have differing opinions, and I hope that you will afford me the same respect. That being said I do have a question. What made you decide that your opinion was important enough that you no longer cared if anyones feeling were to get hurt? I mean we are only talking hair here. Its not like we are talking about an issue so important that hurting a few peoples feelings is justified to protect the good of the rest of humanity. So why? I firmly believe that unless the issue is so important as to be life threatening/altering my opinion is not worth hurting other peoples feelings or making them feel badly about their lifes choices. I am not making a judgement here, I am only curious.>Really, though, I think it looks unsophisticated on any >age. I really dont want to offend anyone, but to me it >looks like it doesnt give any style to your image, like a >farm girl who doesnt know how to be fashionable. I know >that not every guy goes for this look, like it may seem on >the postings you read. I know of at least five guys that >dont like it that long.One of these men even said it >looks like trailer trash. Im just saying what he saidWhat is sophistication? According to Webster, it means 1. Not in a natural, pure or original state. 2. Deprived of native or original simplicity. 3. Highly complicated or developed. 4. Devoid of grossness: as (a) finely experienced and aware, (b) intellectually appealing. Hmmmwell I must say I dont mind being in a pure, original or natural state. I do tend to try to live my life as simply as I can. I was never much for making things more complicated than they need to be. I am experienced and aware (hard to be my age without that happening), and I am well read, articulate and have been told that I can carry on stimulating conversation. So in some ways, according to Webster, I am not sophisticated and in some ways I am. I am not a farm girl as I live in the city (though a small New England city) but I will admit that living on a farm does appeal to me. I guess it is a reflection of my more basic, and simple nature. I dont quite understand the trailer trash thing either. Are you saying all people that live in mobile homes are trash? I lived for quite a few years in the deep south here in the USA and I knew many people that lived in mobile homes. They were not by any definition of the term trashy. They may have been economically deprived, down on their luck, or even in some cases uneducated but they were all beautiful and kind people. Some even lived in mobile homes out of choice, and were considered to be middle to upper middle class (economically speaking). They just chose to do other things with their money instead of trying to impress others with their homes. I guess my point is that you cant generalize about what type of people live where. That is like saying that all married men who live in white houses cheat on their wives with girls half their ages. I am sure that there are some that do, but its not fair to say all. Now in fairness to Holly, she did state that she wasnt the person who said this and that she was just repeating. However, when you use a statement from someone else to support your argument / point of view then you are admitting to agree with the statement.>I dont get nasty comments-very much the opposite is said >to me, or told to my family or friends, that they love my >hair, and other wonderful compliments.Well, Holly, here is something in which you and I have in common. Until you and Ally, I have never heard one bad thing from strangers about my hair. Everything has always been positive. Now I am not saying that people haven't said things out of my ear shot, but then they may have said them out of yours too. Well just never know. But my husband always walks behind me so that he can watch the movement of my hair as it swings back and forth and ripples down the length as well as to watch the reactions of others as I walk by. Unfortunately, I dont have eyes in the back of my head so I dont get to see it. But he says it is priceless. I often get stopped by strangers who have questions about my hair and there is always a compliment involved. I have the support of my family and loved ones as was brought to life recently at an impromptu family reunion. There were aunts, uncles and cousins I hadnt seen for years, but they all knew me because of my hair and it was stated many times (especially by my aunts and uncles) to never cut my hair. To them it was beautiful. So I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder.>I think at least probably some of the time, people really >do mean what they say as far as super long hair goes.Oh, I think this is true about anything. If the people are rude enough to make negative comments loud enough so the person in question can hear them, then they probably do believe in what they are saying. But does their belief make it true or right?>Im not sure how knee length hair suits a personalityWhat if someone said to you, She is so perky and fun loving that that cute little bob really suits her. or She is always so radical and likes to make very bold statements, so I wasnt surprised when she shaved her head. Can you see how personality traits can be assigned to hair length? I think to have hair of any length shows a lot about a personality. I am not saying that it is the only reason I have hair this length but my personality sure does play a part. I am a rebel in a lot of ways, though over the years I have learned to only fight the battles I can win. Having long hair is a battle I can win. No one can tell me to cut it and if they might try it will only make me more determined to keep it this long. As you can see Ive also been called stubborn before. My husband also likes it. We have been married 25 years this summer and this is one of the gifts I give to him. In return he treats me as he calls me, The Goddess. I know that he would still love me even if I didnt give this gift to him, but what a great thing to share with someone you have spent more than half of your life with. If pleasing my husband makes me less of a woman, then so be it. Just call it another personality flaw. Lets see, thats rebellious, stubborn, simplistic, natural. I guess you could say that my hair does suit my personality. Not that these traits could not suit other hair lengths, but it does suit me.>I have seen knee length hair a few times in my life. In >and of itself, its pretty, but not on human headsIf not human then what type of heads?>The first reason I think that a person is growing her hair >this long for (and its usually the primary reason)is for >beautyThat I think is your first problem. Without being the person who is growing or has grown hair that long you will never really know what truly motivates them to do so. And by trying to put what *you* perceive is their reasons for doing it as the primary reason, you will be off base. You cant help but be. You see we can only truly know what our own experiences have taught us. They make us who we are and how we think. My lifes experiences are not yours so you have absolutely no way of knowing why I feel as I do. And even if I try to articulate it, you will never truly understand it. You might get a glimmer of what I am saying, but it would take a life time full of experiences for you to completely understand. But if you want to know the reason I have long hair, I would have to say to please myself. I just plain like it. It gives pleasure to those I love, and that gives me great pleasure. It feels great on my skin. I find it much more versatile than when my hair was short. It is a great conversation starter and I have met many wonderful people because of it.>So, I think its a fair question to ask why someone would >think that having hair that long is pretty, and state why >they think it is. At least, its fair enough to ask here >on a discussion board that is made for this type of >discussion!Yes, it is a fair question, and I will try to tell you why I think it is pretty. It moves as if it has a life of its own. It is so shiny that it looks like I am surrounded by a golden redish aura. I can fill a room with the perfume of my freshly washed hair. It has very few split ends as I take very good care of it. Though these attributes can be used for other hair lengths as well and I am not saying that knee length is better than butt length. It is just best for me. We must all do what makes us happy when it comes to hair or any personal statement as long as it doesnt hurt anyone else. I think you are wrong when you say it has no movement. Believe me, my hair moves. My hair is only flat when I want it to be (as in slicked back). I braid my hair, put it up in buns and twists. Anything you can do with your hair length I can do with mine. It may take me longer, but I can still do it.>It looks like you dont have taste....Subjective, dont you think? I am sure that there are many who feel the same about your hair length, short hair, bald, whatever. Doesnt mean everyone feels that way though.>So, if a person is doing it for beauty, I would think over >these comments.Again, subjective. Just because you dont think its beautiful, doesnt mean that its not beautiful. *You* do not set what is beautiful for the rest of the world, only for yourself.As Holly said before, I am sorry that this got so long, but I have been a quiet lurker here for some time, and this is the first time that I felt moved enough to try and articulate what I have been thinking. I am not saying that everyone must have knee length hair, but why do those of us that do have to feel like we are some sort of pariahs? I am not a freak, nor am I freakish. I am truly sorry if my decision to have knee length hair offends some of you. I certainly didnt start out growing my hair just so that one day I could offend those that visit The Hair Boutique. I do it for me, and those I care about like it, so I will keep it this length. And if you are offended, then I cant help it. You will just have to learn to be offended by me and my knee length hair.Take care,Noreen
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>Dear Noreen:I have to say a few things to you before I leave for two weeks at the cottage.I admire that your husband watches you walk. I love hearing this. So much love for you Noreen from this man.If ever you are in my province I will bring you to a farm or better yet you are welcome to my cottage one day. I am a farm girl and farm girls can dress up a lot more fashionable than lots of those so call city gals and we have manners.lol YOu are a very beautiful person inside and out. I would be very honor to meet a person with such class as yourself that is very elegant in every sense of the word.I am extremely sad to read comments that are so so cruel. Those words are not classy. I wish people would learn to respect be kind toward each other.Lots of hugs for you NoreenDiane from Canada>>
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> Yes you did, and though I wanted to bring up some> issues that post raised, I didnt because I didnt> think the personals board was the place to address the> issues. But since youve brought it up here I would> like to address some of those issues.> Now, I want you to understand that I fully support> your right to your own opinion. I respect that you and> I will have differing opinions, and I hope that you> will afford me the same respect. That being said I do> have a question. What made you decide that your> opinion was important enough that you no longer cared> if anyones feeling were to get hurt? I mean we are> only talking hair here. Its not like we are talking> about an issue so important that hurting a few> peoples feelings is justified to protect the good of> the rest of humanity. So why? I firmly believe that> unless the issue is so important as to be life> threatening/altering my opinion is not worth hurting> other peoples feelings or making them feel badly> about their lifes choices. I am not making a> judgement here, I am only curious.Okay, let's stop hiding behind the " I respect your opinion and I'm only curious" routine. You sound in the rest of this post like your angry, and if you are, (and you obviously are)then just say so, instead of "I feel 'moved' enough to come out of lurker mode". It's alright to get say how you really feel. I just don't like all the game playing and hiding behind words. I wish some people would just get on with being a little more up front, because people can read between the lines anyway.Well, before I go any further, I want to make clear the way I think about the "people who make nasty remarks" subject:1: If you mainly receive many compliments, and then get the ocaasional "why don't you cut it?" remark, chances are it's a jealousy problem with that person, and therefore, don't pay any attention. Now, this doesn't mean that if you have extremely long (going towards the knees and longer) that they are jealous of that. (I'll get to that in a minuite). I'm referring here to derriere length or shorter. That's because most people agree that that length of hair is acceptable-and enviable. Yes, there are people who may think shorter is better, and are not thinking in jealous terms. However, I'm willing to bet that if the hair is truly attractive, then most of the remarks are made out of jealousy. This is assuming the remarks are made by women-although the man in your life (not referring to your man, Noreen) may not like all the attention you're getting, and that's a different jealousy all together, but may make the same remarks.2 A: Still refering to the hip length and "shorter" long hair: If you are getting a lot more nasty remarks than compliments, it may be that it's time to take a very honest look in the mirror and see if it still looks attractive or is it time to think about a new style. Get someone you can really trust to be honest with you, who might be able to help you think things through.B: If you have longer than derriere length hair, the same idea still applies. However, keep in mind that, right or wrong, this long of hair isn't as socially acceptable as the other types of long hair I referred to. So, I think when nasty comments are made about this length of hair, it could be anything from their true feelings of not caring for it to jealousy because they wish they could grow their hair long. When you think about it, it could even be that some people don't like what they assume are your politics (this is in referral to those who associate long hair with the summer of love and all that the politics of having long hair carried years ago). In the case of men having long hair, this might especially be true.Whatever the case may be in people's negative feelings, whether it be jealousy or their true dislike for long hair, it's always ignorant to say it out loud, out on the street, or even UNSOLICITED"advice" from someone who isn't that close to you to be able to say those things with your best interest at heart. (I capitolize "unsolicited" because the "Personals" posting I responded to WAS soliciting people's opinions).Now, if your purpose is to not be fashionable, but just to suit your personality, then that's another matter. I guess you're not really trying to be attractive as your number one priority-that's what Teresa said in not so many words. So if that is the case, then the only comments that should bother these people are the ones that refer to their personality-not how they look with long hair, because physical beauty isn't their first priority.I know I'm probably going to get "yelled" at for this next statement I'm about to make, but that's the price you pay for being honest instead of politically correct-I think that most women (I'm not referring to Teresa here)are kidding themselves when they say they are only doing it (growing hair long to any length) for themselves. Yes, we do it for ourselves, but it also goes hand in hand (at least most of the time) with wanting to look attractive to men. Wait, let me go put on my hardhat-I'm about to get stomped on!:) Well, maybe not, but the point is this:why would we go to all the effort of properly taking care of our long hair if we didn't like the admiration! It's nice to have admiration from women, but I sure like it when men like my hair-and there is not a thing wrong with that. I guess I'm just sick of seeing the P.C. answer all the time of only doing it for ones self. As a woman I know that most of the time that answer is bull. Why do we do it for ourselves? Looking attractive to ourself is the first reason but the VERY close second reason is to look attractive for others. I'd say it's hand in hand. Think about it-if life was different and most men had a preference for short hair instead of long, you would find women having short hair as something wonderful to attain instead of long hair.I also wonder why if hair is just something a person does for "personality"reflection and not to be fashionable, then why do those people surf often to a site that offers a bunch of beauty tips for hair and how to wear it in fashionable styles?Noreen, that's why I said what I said in the "personals" posting. I thought this site (and I still think it is) was primarily how to have terrific hair-hence the tips and so forth. Lately, the politics board looks like it's fast becoming a 60's propaganda board. At the point that I wrote to this posting on "Personals", all that seemed to be said by other posters to this woman seeking advice was how she should keep her knee length hair. Since everyone else is so forthright with their thoughts on why she should keep super long hair, I didn't see any reason to hold back my thoughts. You can believe this or not, but the real reason I said the second-hand comment about this long of hair looking like trailer-trash was because I truly wanted to help the woman see that people outside of this site have way different opinions than what was being cited here. Like I said, I thought that this site was primarily a site to help people look good with their hair-that means seeing fashion tips a lot of the time on the site. So assuming the woman was here to get help for that reason, I thought that she and others should know what having hair like that makes people think sometimes. Look, no one is bashing (Yet) Diane from Canada for saying how she feels about very short hair, and that has probably hurt someones feelings. I don't feel superior (as was implied by you , Noreen) in that I just said what I thought someone should keep in mind. I mean, she was asking-I didn't just "offer" my opinion out of nowhere. Anyhow, I thought that was what these boards were for-stating our opinions. If it isn't, Karen and Jeff better rename these boards to something else!:))Also Noreen, know this: I grew up in a mobile home, from a toddler to around 11 years old. My family were not what society would consider trailer trash at all. We wern't poor (not that that makes you trashy! I know many people who have lot of money who would be considered real trailer trash) and were quite fashionable, really. It's just a nineties expression to say you don't look as though you have taste, and not too knowledgable about fashion. Probably since I spent my young childhood in a mobile home, I shouldn't say that expression-even second-hand, but it does describe in a fast way what I think are a lot of people's view on this type of hairstyle. Also, I'm not being snobby about "farm-girls", but let's face it, their fashion sense don't usually come to mind when one thinks of elegance and sophistication(I mean the ones that actually look the part-not girls that grew up on a farm but have fashion sense; I thought people would just know what I meant-does EVERYTHING have to be explained and spelled out to some of you people?) Anyway, the point I was trying to make was with this type of hair you can only do a small amount of styles, and I've only ever seen these styles either just hanging there or in a ponytail. The woman sounded in her post like she was looking for something more for her hair, fashion wise. Also, to some people, it DOES look a bit freakish. Just as long nails that curl do to some people. I feel that way about both. However, I would never say that a person doesn't have a choice to wear their hair how they want. I've only ever said it's down to personal choice. It's also another person's choice to feel how they do about it (and short hair, too)and express their opinion on a board that's meant for such discussion.Obviously there is a long hair bias on this discussion (?) board, for the most part. Now I'm painted like a stuck up snob-know it all because of the comments I made over on personals, but someone else can say all they want about a short-haired look on a person, and is not chided (so far) by the same person who just chided me for saying what I did about knee-length hair. Political correctness at it's best!Holly
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Hi Diane,I just wanted to clarify that I didn't mean because you stated an opinion about how you feel about very short hair that you set out to hurt anyone's feelings. I re-read my post and thought it might sound like I was implying that, and that wasn't what I meant. I only think that you are just stating an opinion, like I'm doing. I also meant that if I'm chided for saying how I feel about extremely long hair and you (or anyone else with like opinion) are not, then there is an unfairness about that.Just wanted to be clear on that so that I wouldn't be misunderstood.Thanks,Holly
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>> Dear Holly:Everyone has one time or the other slipped on a banana peel and said things that we all have regretted later on. Yes you and I have made up. No hurt feelings period.Now to be your friend and you like people who are direct with you I will have to say you slipped on a banana peel with some comments you made. Not with me as I am not a very long hair woman but I know for a fact that there are a few ladies with very long hair that are very hurt by your comments. Please read all your post and really think about it. Yes you are not the only one that said cruel things. I am hoping that some others will also take their responsibility and say they are sorry to the very long hair ladies.The diffirence between you and me is that I only said that I feel something is missing when I see a very short hair lady. I never said it was freakish or anything insulting. I didn't say that some men I know think that short hair on women look too much masculine etc.or used words like trailer trash etc. I don't share that opinion. Short hair can be very feminine but in my opinion only my eyes tend to feel that something is missing.When we give our opinions on this board we really need to be extra careful on how we give it more than in real life because the other person can't see our faces or hear our voices.a hug for you Holly. Please do the right thing.
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Diane,If what I said is too strong of words, (and maybe it was but my intention was TOTALLY NOT to hurt anyone's feelings, so I'm truly sorry if I did do that) than you take back what you said about me not having any class. You know what though? Not a lot of you people showed much class to JerkyFlea. If any newcomers came around during that time, I would be emabarrassed to know what they thought of all that if I was some of you posters.I think the only people that get compliments about class around here are those who grow ther hair 10 feet and get all self righteous about it to people who don't even have a big problem with their being that long in the first place!The fact is, I honestly don't care how anyone wears their hair-I've said it before, I'll say it again, it's a personal choice. I was just adding my two cents on a discussion board where this is just what you do. I really do have more important things to get riled up over, but what gets me angry here is what gets me angry about society in general; that if you don't go along with what is politically correct, then you must a jerk-kind of attitude.It goes on here all the time and it's getting a little stupid. I also don't like the hiding behind words game that goes on with some people, like in Noreen's rsponse to me. If you're upset about something, say so. It's o.k., at least when you're posting to me, and you might as well because people can read between the lines anyway.Like I said before, I was really only trying to help those who seem to not have a clue as to why they get the remarks that they do. Some knee-lengthers honestly seem like they don't why others make the comments they do, and I thought that maybe they should hear about those opinions, because then they'd know. I do happen to go along with that opinion, just like I do for super-long nails and punk-colored hair. I just wouldn't go around saying it out loud and embarrass the person on the street with my opinions.I could have just said "tasteless" and not "trailer-trash" and I'm sorry for using too strong of a word. However, I think others should now think how they perform with other people and start apologizing, too.One other comment-this short hair and 'something missing'-couldn't that hurt someone's feelings, too? Think about that, Diane.HollyHolly
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Sorry, people, didn't mean to call myself HOLLY HOLLY!:))Also the one line should read: What gets me angry here is what gets me angry about society in general; that if you don't go along with what is politically correct, then you must BE a jerk-kind of attitude.Holly-just one name this time!:)
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> First of all the sorry belongs to all the very long hair ladies. You are not the only one that done things.For the past while many very abusive and degrading comments were made toward very long hair women and I know that some of them are very hurt. A good hint is Noreen letter. I have been participating in web sites with her for the past two years and she has never given any opinon. It is very obvious that it hurts plus someone that also email me asking why cruel things are being said.The sad part is the question that Ally ask is very interesting. I would personally like to know why people have this gain to grow their hair very very long but now we will not know because of the fear of abuse.I really don't appreciate your comment that you made to Noreen about me about bashing short hair which is false . It is so false that it is to stupid to even comment on it. I am pro choice but common sense would be if I was really for short hair for myself I would have short hair. Very logical and simple to understand. There was nothing there to be hurt by. For the past while i have been trying to be peaceful with you Holly. I even defended you on a web list and you appreciated it. I am even praying for your husband health and this is how you repay me by starting a stupid rumor that I am bashing short hair ladies. My sister, my mother, my friends and some of my friend on the web site all have short hair and I care for them and think they are all very feminine. YOu have hurt my feelings but trying to start a lie.Also do not send any more emails to me because it is obvious to me that you are not a true friend to me. I don't care for yelling emails.The base of my disappontment is the lack of respect toward other human beings. I really didn't care about what hair lenght. YOu accuse people of not being direct . Well Holly you got your wish because I am the most direct person you might come across and I am a strong believer in being at peace with people and respecting.People tend to give very abusive comments and cover it up with the word opinion.I am gone for weeks now so you can fight by yourself.
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I'm away for a couple of months, and the board is now full of catty remarks and mudslinging about trailer parks.Makes me feel real good if we ever have a women world leaders:Ms. President: You know, just woman to woman, I really think it's time you did something with your hairMs. Premier (icily, but trying to maintain a conversational tone): Whatever do you mean, dear?Ms. President (matter of factly): It's so dated, but I'm not surprised really, your country is somewhat backwardMs. Premier: At least our women have virtue, and are not peddling their wares in taverns!Ms. President: White trash!!! (presses the button)Ms.Premier: Slut!!! (presses the button)Is this the image you want to convey? You make me glad I'm single.Dan
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Hi Holly,>Okay, let's stop hiding behind the " I respect your opinion and I'm only curious" routine. You sound in the rest of this post like your angry, and if you are, (and you obviously are)then just say so, instead of "I feel 'moved' enough to come out of lurker mode". It's alright to get say how you really feel. I just don't like all the game playing and hiding behind words. I wish some people would just get on with being a little more up front, because people can read between the lines anyway.Sorry, Holly but I really was curious. I mean why would an adult feel they have to insult a group of people just to make a point? It seemed kind of high schoolish. Unless of course you meant unsophisticated, farm girl, trailer trash as a compliment. In which case I apologize for the misunderstanding. You can be polite and still get your point across. It just takes a bit of maturity. Of course you call it hiding behind words or being PC. Did you get out of my post that I was angry? Good because I was. See, no hiding there. You understood exactly the feeling I wanted you to. Would it have made you more comfortable if I called you names? Well sorry, thats not my style. I do not hide behind my words, but I do use them to my advantage whenever I can. And I do believe that I can make my point come across without being rude or as you call it up front.> B: If you have longer than derriere length hair, the same idea still applies. However, keep in mind that, right or wrong, this long of hair isn't as socially acceptable as the other types of long hair I referred to.Excuse me? Now we are socially unacceptable? Dear me, what will my friends and associates do when they find out I am a social pariah because of my hair. Well I guess I wont be asked to attend any parties this year! Im sorry. I am making fun and thats not nice, but I really am trying to lighten this up a bit. However, do you see what I am reading from what you write. I see that you feel that the only reason someone would say anything negative about you hair is out of jealousy. That you hair is enviable while if someone should say something negative about my hair then thats ok because I choose to have a hair length that is socially unacceptable. Seriously, Holly, my hair has never been the cause of my being excluded from anything. It has never held me back in any of my jobs. My friends dont even notice it any more, they just accept it as a part of me. I dont think that it is really so unacceptable as you think it is for woman. But I do think that men do have a harder time of it and for that I am sorry and I hope that it does change soon for them. We should all have the same opportunity to express ourselves in how we look.>Whatever the case may be in people's negative feelings, whether it be jealousy or their true dislike for long hair, it's always ignorant to say it out loud, out on the street, or even UNSOLICITED"advice" from someone who isn't that close to you to be able to say those things with your best interest at heart. (I capitolize "unsolicited" because the "Personals" posting I responded to WAS soliciting people's opinions).Holly, I couldnt agree with you more. And I never said that your comments to Ann were unsolicited. I just took exception to how you did it.>Now, if your purpose is to not be fashionable, but just to suit your personality, then that's another matter. I guess you're not really trying to be attractive as your number one priority-that's what Teresa said in not so many words. So if that is the case, then the only comments that should bother these people are the ones that refer to their personality-not how they look with long hair, because physical beauty isn't their first priority.I dont think thats true. Just because it is not the number one reason I grow my hair doesnt mean that being called hideous, freakish, trashy, or any other negative expletive you can think of wont bother me. I am human and I do have feelings. But what gets me through is the support network I have. I am also a strong woman who has the self confidence to be able to put it into perspective. Do you really think that because fashion is not my #1 reason to have knee length hair I am shallow?>I know I'm probably going to get "yelled" at for this next statement I'm about to make, but that's the price you pay for being honest instead of politically correct-I think that most women (I'm not referring to Teresa here)are kidding themselves when they say they are only doing it (growing hair long to any length) for themselves. Yes, we do it for ourselves, but it also goes hand in hand (at least most of the time) with wanting to look attractive to men.No Holly, Im not going to stomp you. You are right, when I was 17 and just starting to date my husband it was a priority to be attractive to him. He loved long hair and I was more than glad to do that for him. And though I still want him to think me attractive, I have found that over the years he does. No matter what, he loves me just as I am. Lets face it you dont stay together for 25 years if the only thing holding you together is your looks. No matter how hard you try they do diminish. But when you truly love and accept someone those things just dont mean quite as much. The physical beauty is nice but the inner beauty is much more sustaining. That goes for my hair too. I know he would still love me if I cut my hair. And I know me. If I really didnt want long hair no matter how much I might want to be attractive to him I would cut it. So you see, I CAN say that I do grow my hair this long for me. Anything else that comes because of it is just icing on the cake. Besides if what you say is true and my hair is socially unacceptable, freaky, and just plain unfashionable then in no way could anyone think it is attractive. So why else would I grow it if not for myself?>I also wonder why if hair is just something a person does for "personality"reflection and not to be fashionable, then why do those people surf often to a site that offers a bunch of beauty tips for hair and how to wear it in fashionable styles?Do you really think that people are so one dimensional that just because fashion is not the number one reason they have long hair that they dont want their hair to look nice? I never said that I dont care how my hair looks, that I dont want it to be in the best condition it can be, or that when I go out I dont want to be able to style it in different ways.>Noreen, that's why I said what I said in the "personals" posting. I thought this site (and I still think it is) was primarily how to have terrific hair-hence the tips and so forth.No disagreement there. But does that mean that just because my hair is knee length I shouldnt care about having terrific hair? Or is it just that you think that its impossible for me to have terrific hair at my length. If so, then I hate to disappoint you. I do have terrific hair. It is in great condition and mostly because of this site and the other wonderful people here. I have learned so much here and I consider some of the people that post here to be the best cyber friends you can have.>You can believe this or not, but the real reason I said the second-hand comment about this long of hair looking like trailer-trash was because I truly wanted to help the woman see that people outside of this site have way different opinions than what was being cited here.Holly, I have no doubt that your intentions were good and honorable towards Ann. But when you give no consideration to those you hurt in the process then your good intentions get lost in the message. Words are powerful tools. They have been known to start wars and they have been known to stop them. One should always take care in how they use them.Look, no one is bashing (Yet) Diane from Canada for saying how she feels about very short hair, and that has probably hurt someones feelings.Youre right. They may have hurt someones feelings. And if they did then that person has every right to express that fact to Diane. But Diane has not hurt my feelings so why should I feel it necessary to confront her?>I don't feel superior (as was implied by you , Noreen) in that I just said what I thought someone should keep in mind. I mean, she was asking-I didn't just "offer" my opinion out of nowhere.Holly, I never meant to imply that you felt superior. I do, however, think that when you generalize to make a point such as most woman feel, all woman do,(fill in the blanks as you want) and you put your feelings into the blanks. it comes across as a little self centered. Its like just because you feel that way everyone else must feel that way. Im not saying that is how you are, I am just saying that is how you come across to me. Read my last post very carefully. I did two things you may not even be aware of. First, I made sure that when I quoted you I used almost the whole paragraph. I wanted to make sure that you and everyone else knew that I wasnt taking phrases out of context and turning them to suit my own ends. Secondly, I tried very hard not to generalize. Every issue I brought up I only told you how I felt and how they may or may not pertain to me. I almost never included everyone with knee length hair except at the very end. And even then it was because I have first hand and person knowledge of how some of these other people feel from e-mail that we have traded. Every opinion is entirely my own and no one else. I have no right to speak for anyone else, and to generalize in any way would be doing just that.>It's (Trailer Trash) just a nineties expression to say you don't look as though you have taste, and not too knowledgable about fashion. Probably since I spent my young childhood in a mobile home, I shouldn't say that expression-even second-hand, but it does describe in a fast way what I think are a lot of people's view on this type of hairstyle.Whether you grew up in a mobile home or not its a term that is offensive. Its a generalization that insults a whole group of people. Maybe it is PC to not use words or phrases like that, and maybe we do read too much into it. But I personally believe that the world is a better place when we dont use terms like that.>does EVERYTHING have to be explained and spelled out to some of you people?)Hehehewell I guess you have found out that it does. You should never assume that anyone is going to read your mind and know what you are trying to say. Their perspective of things will most assuredly not be the same as yours. I dont know if you have ever done this but it was an exercise that we had to do in a communications class I once took. Have someone tell you how to smoke a cigarette, from opening the pack to taking the first puff. Do exactly what they say and remember you have no idea how it is done. You will be surprised. The first thing they will tell you is to open the pack. They wont tell you how to do it and you are not suppose to know what to do without them telling you. After you fumble around a bit and dont get it open they will get the idea. The next instruction will not be as vague but it still will probably not be detailed enough to get the pack open. However, by the time you get to the point of lighting the cigarette they will be even more precise in what they want you to do and there will be no chance of you misunderstanding. Communication will have taken place.>Anyway, the point I was trying to make was with this type of hair you can only do a small amount of styles, and I've only ever seen these styles either just hanging there or in a ponytail.I dont agree with you there. Tell me of a style that you can do with your length of hair but you dont think I can do, and I bet I can do it with mine. Even a French Twist. I am only limited by my imagination, not by my hair.>The woman sounded in her post like she was looking for something more for her hair, fashion wise. Also, to some people, it DOES look a bit freakish. Just as long nails that curl do to some people. I feel that way about both.Obviously there is a long hair bias on this discussion (?) board, for the most part. Now I'm painted like a stuck up snob-know it all because of the comments I made over on personals, but someone else can say all they want about a short-haired look on a person, and is not chided (so far) by the same person who just chided me for saying what I did about knee-length hair. Political correctness at it's best!Holly, I know you dont believe me, but I do respect that you and I will never feel the same on this subject. I know that I will never change your mind as you will never change mine. But as you have the right to your opinion I also have the right to mine and I will voice it if so moved. I tried very hard not to come across as attacking you in my last post. I didnt want to come across that way. I try very hard to approach things logically and calmly and I do try to keep my emotions out of it, but I am human and they do slip out at times. As I said before, I have no bone to pick with Diane. That is between her and anyone that might be offended by anything she says. And I am sure that she can handle it if it ever does come up. It is not my place nor do I want to be champion of all the downtrodden. I have enough issues of my own to confront. As for how you feel you are painted, well I can only say that we are solely responsible for how others view us. If you feel that others are viewing you in the wrong light then take a look at what they are seeing and recolor it.Take care,Noreen
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Hehehe, Dan. That is really cute. And I really needed the laugh right about now. But really, I don't think Holly or I have been very catty. I do think we are both firmly stuck in our opinions and we are both making each other accountable for what we say and how we say it. After all in a forum like this it is important to be concise and clear. I don't think either one of us has slung any mud. At least my computer area still looks pretty clean. But who knows what tomorrow holds...;-) And wouldn't this be a boring place if everyone agreed with each other and never argued their point of view? Besides, a woman would never press that button. We might scratch each others eyes out or tear each other's hair out or even give each other the cold shoulder for a while. But someting would come along that we both agree on and all would be forgotten. Now if you were married you would know that...:-)Take care,Noreen> I'm away for a couple of months, and the board is now> full of catty remarks and mudslinging about trailer> parks.> Makes me feel real good if we ever have a women world> leaders:> Ms. President: You know, just woman to woman, I really> think it's time you did something with your hair> Ms. Premier (icily, but trying to maintain a> conversational tone): Whatever do you mean, dear?> Ms. President (matter of factly): It's so dated, but> I'm not surprised really, your country is somewhat> backward> Ms. Premier: At least our women have virtue, and are> not peddling their wares in taverns!> Ms. President: White trash!!! (presses the button)> Ms.Premier: Slut!!! (presses the button)> Is this the image you want to convey? You make me glad> I'm single.> Dan
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