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Isla Q. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Isla Q. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2003 at 3:00am
I think we all agree that Sadam is doing no good. But the way the US and UK have gone about this isn't anything to write home about either. They have completely undermined the UN and refuse to listen to other opinions. This week I heard Tony Blair say they cannot back off now because what message would that give to Sadam. The fact is the US and UK put themselves in that situation where it was politically impossible not to go to war!
And truly believe that the US and K will in fact not beat Sadam with this war. He has a massive tunnelsystem where he can hide. Most Iraqi people have nowhere to hide, and they are the ones who will get hurt.
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Lady Maria View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lady Maria Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2003 at 3:42am
They said we would never beat the Communists either. I heard that all my childhood. The bitter unhappy liberal extremists said Communism and the Soviet Union would win. Eastern Europe would never be free.

I guess they were wrong weren't they.

It isn't just about what the U.S. and Britian want. It has more to do with the natural progress of people. People everywhere want freedom and human rights and a better standard of living. No one wants to live under a terrible dictatorship.

We will see how long Saddam Hussain's regime lasts. And if any civilians die it is his fault. We wouldn't have fired a shot if he and his government would have gone into exile in Tunisia or Bahrain as was offered to him.

As far as the U.N. goes, it is like the League of Nations. It is entirely ineffective. It didn't stop the genocide in Cambodia or the Sudan or Bosnia or Rawanda . It has never stopped a genocide.
Only when the U.S. and Britian went into Kosovo did we stop the genocide of the the Kosovar Albanians.
40% of the U.N. is dictatorships. The rest are mostly incompetent, ineffective, weak cowards.
If you want something done, you call on the U.S. and British . We are the only ones that can win a war or defeat a dictator.
Lady Maria
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uzma View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uzma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2003 at 4:01am
Turkey is a secular democracy. The people of Turkey have democractic governments that behave like autocrats. The people are Muslim, but the govt wants to be part of the Europe and the EU. The people have been restricted in their religious practises for generations. The dervishes were outlawed and head-scarves were banned until recently. People are Muslim but the govt is not and if it were a true democracy, the elected govt. would not be abusing the basic human rights of their people to freely practise their religion.
No Arab wants an evil dictator. Arabs are historically, socially and politically, tribal people. They are used to being led by a benevolent dictator. It has been this way for generations. Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE, etc are all wealthy Arab states. They are not democracies. You dont see their people requring liberation from autocracy. That is because they have money. They are fed.
The Afgans are tribal and we want to impose democracy on them. It has and will fail. They follow tribal leaders. Period. Pakistan is a democracy but go onto the streets of Karachi. Speak to the ordinary person, speak to the middle classes basically you will hear the same thing. They want the Muslim political system. They are detached from democracy and it from them. It hasnt worked they have tried it. They dont want it. This is what the US/K fears. A wholesale Muslim revolution like they had in Iran. Why dont we just leave them alone to get on with it, rather than interfering.
Last week, I had dinner with (among others) a Slovakian doctor and a Lithuanian scientist. You are right. They have been through hell with communism and democracy is better because it is not so invasive in terms of their personal freedoms. But they are uncomfortable with how democracy will develop. Democracy detaches state from people. We talked about exactly that happening in Britain at the moment and what it really said about western states. They are demonstrating yetthey still fear that they will be silenced by invisible hands who now have the shelter of a west-sanctioned political system. Vladmir Putin the Russian premier is not seeing mass demonstrations on the streets of his nation. Except the anti-war ones which have the satisfaction of knkowing that their leader reflects the will of their people.

Muslim immigrants and refugees want the economic benefits of the west. They do not want, need or share western values.
I socialise with a wide range of Arabs, Iranians, Egyptians and Pakistanis who have settled in our countries. I know plenty who have been born in the UK. Some of them have given up. They feel they had better behave like the white majority and become "integrated", i.e indistinguishable from the "host" population. Indeed they have been "encouraged" to do this in Britain by David Blunkett - a Cabinet member (Senior Government) and others. They are "encouraged" to speak to their young children exclusively in english. A slow cultural genocide.

But something interesting is going on. They young people of Muslim origin are turning away from western values. They are recovering their Muslim identities and expressing repugnance at their parent moral ambiguity. Today we saw thousands of children and teenagers flow onto the streets of a number of major British cities in Anti-war protest.
With them were their teachers, Members of Parliament, intellectuals, etc. Not just the usual left-wing suspects, those who did not belong to any political party or had ever had a political opinion were out in force for the first time. Ordinary British people with their children. Grandparents.

My point is that what the new, west-born, un-westernised Muslim community wants is not what we think every "intelligent" person would want. That is racist and ignorant, because it assumes that they dont have anything better.
Islam has it's own ideal political system, women's rights are intrinsic in this as is a welfare state. What the west offers is timely economic security and a secular, distant political system that prefers the individual not to think too much.

With respect, you appear to believe that democracy is synonymus with freedom. That made me laugh. Have you heard of Israel? Please wake up!!!
Also, you imply that some of my comments were racist. I wish we were face to face and you knew who and what I am. And I have been to the US, specifically, DC, Iowa, LA and Chicago. Indeed I have lots of family members in the US and in Canada. People are basically good and well-meaning. I also work in a multi-national corporation, with Americans. I have relatives (including my sister) in various UN agencies.
Yes, Americans are nice people. They also tend (I generalise) to have a particulary American characteristic of thinking that because they are the No.1 superpower in the world at the moment that they are right. That we all want to be Americans. I find this incredibly arrogant and I am not alone. This, and US foreign policy, is why America is so hated around the world.

My prediction for the next few years is that US/K aggression in the Middle-east will be tolerated by the rest of the world for a while. But that arrogance I spoke of earlier will go too far at some point and there will be a backlash. I think the scale will be unprecedented and that it will make WW2 look like picnic.

Debate is good.
Thank you for being an articulate opponent.
Back to hair.?
Uzi

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uzma View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uzma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2003 at 4:02am
Maria.

Your faith in the US/K is commendable, dubious and highly entertaining.

As they say:- "go with whatever lie suits you".
Uzi

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Melba View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Melba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2003 at 9:19am
We really don't care about your dumb ideas Uzma. How come us Christians don't have a problem with the Chinese buddha people or the Hindus? How come its allways the Muslims that fight with everybody?
When I lived in Chicago the most prejudiced people towards us blacks was the arabs. They looked at us like animals, they were worse than Ku Klux Klansmen. Maybe the problem ain't America or Tony Blair or the Buddhas or the Christians. Maybe it is your Jihad Muslim holy war garbage!!!!!
Uzma you and Saddam Hussein can KISS MY BLACK A#S!!!!! SADDAM IS DEAD MEAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Melba View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Melba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2003 at 9:27am
You sound like you want a world war Uzma. You think them Hindus in India love you Muslims. They fight you there.Or them Buddhas in China . They are fighting Muslims in that western province there.
You really think anyone could win a nuculear war Uzma. You know how many nukes do you think America, Britian and China could drop on the Middle East? Is that what you want girl?
YOU TALK LIKE AN IDIOT UZMA! And if you don't want to talk English then why do you live in a English speakin country.
BELIEVE ME, YOU DON"T WANT WORLD WAR 3 with us girlie!!!!!
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uzma View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uzma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2003 at 9:46am
Melba

Why have you allowed a civilized discussion to deteriorate into abuse?

All of us have our own viewpoints and although we may not respect those views, let us conduct ourselves with good manners?

I do not want a world war. I want peace, harmony and justice. I want a world where Christians, Jews, Hindus peacefully co-exist, with autonomy and without interference with each other.
You to your ways and we to ours.

As Kintaro said, terrorism is terrorism not matter who is pulling the trigger.
I did not wish to inflate or incense people, just to make them see both sides. I am glad that Lady Maria presented her views as strongly as I did.

It is a pity that you have to resort to slurs.
I forgive you and hope that you improve yourself so that you can have reasonable articulate discussions in future.
Uzi

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Lady Maria View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lady Maria Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2003 at 10:19am
In some ways you are right Uzma. Americans are too arrogant at times, and people always resent the "top dog" so to speak, which is America whether we like it or not, right now.
It's like our national sport Uzma, which is baseball. The New York Yankees baseball team always wins the most, and they are sometimes arrogant. Some of the other teams hate them even if they respect their talent. Don't you have a famous soccer team, I think they are called Birmingham United, that win the soccer league often? I'm sure other teams sometimes resent them.
And no, you shouldn't have to give up what you love about your culture. But this talk of World War is ridiculous. America has enough nukes to blow up the Middle East one hundred times over, and I hope neither America or any other country ever uses nukes again! Heaven forbid! That is why we need to get along.
There is no denying though that even though everyone should keep whatever they want about their ethnic culture, and people should respect that, that democracy is growing. In 1950 only 25% of the world's countries were democratic. Today it is 60%, and other countries, like Iran for example, want democracy. That isn't an "American" thing, it is just something that is evolving. And there is really no turning back the clock on that. And there is really no turning back the clock on the English language. From Sweden to Mexico to China to India, English is taught as a second language, although I think it is fine for people to speak more than one language. That means they are well educated.

Of course democracies can be flawed. Democracies are run by humans, and we are flawed. And I agree that Israel should not put more settlements on the West Bank or Gaza, and that the Palestinians should have their own country. And I believe that will happen soon. Tony Blair has emphazied that on many occasions, to his credit. Even Bush is grudgingly going along with that now. We have to be evenhanded about things.

I try to understand the Jews too though Uzma. There are only 14 million Jews in the world. There are billions of Christians like myself and Muslims like you. We are very large religions. I can understand the Jews defensiveness. I think they shoud be allowed to have a country, in Israel proper; assuming of course that the Palestinians have their country too.

I have stayed up all night watching news on the war, I didn't go to work today. The war is disturbing. Let us hope and pray that it is over soon with very few casualties.

I need to get some sleep now. God bless you Uzma my Muslim sister. I love you!
Lady Maria
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Lady Maria View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lady Maria Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2003 at 10:24am
P.S.
I'm glad you find me entertaining Uzma, us Americans are into entertainment, as I'm sure you know.

You are entertaining too!!!
Lady Maria
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uzma View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uzma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2003 at 10:38am
Lady Maria

I also stayed at home today because I have the flu and because I stayed up late last night watching the unfolding events in Iraq.

By the way, it's Manchester United football club - the best in the world...(hehehe)

I love you too, Lady Maria, my Christian sister.

Take care and God bless you.
Uzi

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kintaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2003 at 1:05pm
Imagine a world where there are no countries, no poverty, no hunger, no war and no government.

Close your eyes. Think about it for 15 seconds.

Open them now. In the next 15 seconds, I doubt 1 % will actually do something to get close to the human dream of peace.


As for race, religion, and other biases, the only way to get rid of them is to re-vamp the whole idea or throw it out. Like religion especially. The convert and die people, on all sides of the multi-sided fence.... the "God bless this side, God bless the other."..... It's engrained in the definition of most religions, clearly christianity and islam.

And this may not sound like a news breaker, especially when it is ignored by both sides, God's not on your side or any other's, and he's not playing dice with the world for one reason, that the concept of a divinity is flawed. If you care for the here and now, you love people in the here and now. If you care about a ticket to heaven, most (not all) people wait to love in the there and then, which quite logically doesn't exist, or at least doesn't exist in any (wo)man-made concept.


America is the strongest nation in the world because they have a loving hand as soft as silk, and an iron fist as the other. Some may debate that they use the other hand too much, but liberating the world (or at least attempting to) is a two-hand job. Both hands must work together, to weed out problems, and to fill them in with solutions.

The only 2 problems with this semi-utopic description of the world is this : 1, Bush's, and practically everyone else's references to God doesn't advance the cause, real people do...... and 2, the most probable cash cow scenario (i.e. profiting from the oil fields) will most likely happen.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions, but I see the road since there is no hell, just here.
I hate all of the following and lots more : Fundamentalists, racists, sexists, fascists, ageists (people saying seniors = senile , kids = stupid , 18 = immature or a combo of them), and bigots for causes yet to receive their own designation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kintaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2003 at 1:12pm
P.S. Melba, you screwed up. Baseless positions lead you nowhere, and I don't care what color you are, screwing up is human, and last I heard, "people of african origin" are human.

BTW, wasn't Uzi a christian last time I checked ? I could be wrong, I do remember the god part.

This thread may close soon because in the last 5++ posts, there have been no reference to hair but in our sigs. If it does, so be it. Because off-topic progressive thought can be tolerated. When regressive thought is put in a thread, it kills it, no matter how progressive all the future posts are.

Thank you, and please register for the forums. We do want you here if you can provide more progressive thought than "kiss my black arse"
I hate all of the following and lots more : Fundamentalists, racists, sexists, fascists, ageists (people saying seniors = senile , kids = stupid , 18 = immature or a combo of them), and bigots for causes yet to receive their own designation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2003 at 6:09pm
Uzma, you sound like you know what you are talking about. You must drive your leftist friends crazy. A strong, self confident women who doesn't espouse the leftist ideology of victimhood. I bet you send shivers down their spines. God, I love a real intelligent woman. Keep the faith, but don't be afraid to share it. We need strong ladies like you to speak up in our great nation. BTW, I hope all is well in the hair growth efforts.
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uzma View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uzma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2003 at 7:14pm
Hello Bill - and thanks for your kind comments.

Actually, you have partly explained the look of shock and horror on the faces around me when I get started on these topics.
The other part must have something to do with being a small, non-feminist woman.

The hair growth odyssey (thanks for asking) is going wonderfully. I love the sensation of hair sitting on my shoulders and rolling down my back. I should have done this years ago.

And although I don't do the victim thing, I need to do less blaming and take more action and personal responsibility.
Onwards and upwards !!!

Take care, Bill.
Uzi

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Lady Maria View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lady Maria Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2003 at 7:35pm
Kintaro.
Uzma has said on several occasions that she is a Muslim woman.

Uzma.
So the team is called Manchester United. Now I remember, you are right. I think they wear red uniforms.

Bill.
There are many strong, independent minded women who are not into the feminist, leftist, feel sorry for yourself victim mentality. I like to think I am one of them also.
It is possible to be tolerant and progressive and still in many ways be traditional and conservative. And, I might also say, feminine.
This is something I think I share in common with Uzma and an increasingy number of women.
Lady Maria
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Saddam Hussein is not a true Muslim, he is a socialist. He didn''t make the Muslim women cover in Iraq. He is not worthy of support.
Only women who are properly covered and cut can be considered Muslim. Most western Muslim women and Socialist Muslim women are not Muslims and will not have salvation. They are not of Allah, because so many of them don''t obey the clerics, don''t obey their men, are not cut and they don''t cover. They are fallen women like Christian, Jewish and Hindu women.

Al Qaeda I believe are true Muslims. The Taliban were true Muslims. The leaders of Iran , the holy clerics are good Muslims.
A good Muslim can never tolerate democracy, only Allah''s rule is sufficent. Secular democracies talk of freedom of religion but this allows people to stray into evil. Only a government that is of Allah is worth defending.

Good women of America please be modest. Ideally wear a burqa but at least cover your head with a scarf and don''t let men see your body, only a long dress is sufficent.
Only a covered and cut woman has salvation and pleases Allah. Obey your husband. Only your husband should see you uncovered and all Muslim women should marry and have children for Allah. This can make them true Muslims.
God is great! Praise Allah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hassam from LA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2003 at 2:49pm
REMEMBER MUSLIM WOMEN> ALLWAYS COVER!!!!!

THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hassam
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uzma View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uzma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2003 at 2:57pm
Please do not start this again Hassam.
Uzi

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Melba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2003 at 3:37pm
Kimtaro, you are a little 18 year old weirdo punk. I don't need any advice from you. I am older than you I am married and have children , and work, and no more about life in the tippy tip of my little finger than you will ever know ya little oddball!

And Uzma I certainly don't need your forgiveness you are NOT THE LORD JESUS! AND YOU WERE THE ONE THAT WAS UNCIVILIZED AND TALKIN BOUT HAVIN A WORLD WAR!!! NOT ME!
At least you are honest Uzma you say you are only livin in England for economic reasons you have no loyalty for England and don't consider yoself a Brit. That is the problem with Muslims. They think they are special that they are better than everyone else that they don't need to do nothin for the society they live in. Black Americans we got our own culture too just like the Irish ,the Mexicans, and the Polish , but we still have loyalty to America. We considered ourselfes Americans. Thats what make you Muslims different you are stuck up people that consider the rest of us Infadels or whatever you call the non-Muslim people that you consider non-human.You Muslims Arabs in the Sudan killed 2 million black Christians mostly innocent men ,women ,and kids. You killed innocent civilians at the WorldTrade Towers. You killed innocent Hindu civilians in India. Yet our president and the generals said today that the war in Iraq is going slower because we are tryin not to kill Muslim civilians. Why are we trying not to kill Muslim civilians? They would kill us!
The Muslims are taught that other religions are Infadels, unworthy of life if you ain't Muslim. That is why Muslims have Jihad, the holy war against non-Muslims. That is why when you say hi to a Muslim or smile at them they just give you a dirty look. They consider you an Infadel, you are no good to them.
We should just fight the Muslims like the Muslims fought in the Sudan when they killed 2 million black Christians civilians. Im sure we would lose less soliders if we just fought the war 100 percent instead of tryin to protect civilians that would kill us if they had a chance!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uzma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2003 at 4:31pm
Hello Melba

I forgave you because your slurs were aimed at me and I did not wish any sin to stick to you for your mistakes.
I forgive you again because you are obviously damaged, hurt, judgemental and proud.

I am a Muslim first, a Briton second. I presume you are a Christian first and an American second?
I will not be loyal to any country just because I live there. I am only loyal to righteousness because this is Gods command.
I work and pay taxes, I dont draw any benefits and I support the needy in Britain of whatever race and religion because they are my brothers, sisters, neighbors and fellow human beings.

I believe that every human being (and I dont judge which person is better than any other, because my religion tells me that only God can and will decide between us) is basically good. Where people lose, ignore or distort this basic goodness you get evil.
People who have professed being Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists have and continue to commit acts of evil that are against God and His creation.
Inquisition
Slavery
Crusades
Nazism
Wars (too many to mention)
Terrorist acts (too many to mention)
I could go on.

Name me one main religion whose followers have not gone against their religion in committing horrific acts.
Jihad, in Arabic, means striving or effort. There are two jihads. The greater jihad, which is the individuals inner, personal struggle against evil within themselves. This type of jihad is constant and the most important.
The lesser jihad, is the fight against those who aggress against you first, and if you are on the side of righteousness.
The Iran-Iraq war was two muslim countries going to "jihad" against each other. More that 2 million people were killed by their own fellow muslims!!!
They were obviously stupid and led by the evil motives of their political masters as are many countries are today.

We are living in dangerous times, Melba.
If good people are going to be the future of this world than we have to approach each other in the spirit of truthfulness, forgiveness and understanding.
Good people, regardless of their religion, have to join hands and defeat our common enemies.
God will decide, long after this life is over, as to which of us is worthy of His approval.

May He bless you, heal you and protect you, Melba.
Uzi

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