I'd love to take credit! But I really can't. I read it somewhere but cannot remember exactly where. I think it may have been on Hair Boutique here somewhere. I do, however, think communication between people in all areas of life would be much improved if we'd speak more specifically and focused when trying to communicate what we want to say, especially an idea that really needs a clear definition.
The brutal reality about styling long hair is that it will always be easier for someone else to do it than to do it yourself. That is why, for milennia, women who could afford it had someone on staff to dress their hair. Simple logistics state that I can reach better because I am above and behind you and your arms can only reach so far... If you want to try a new style, it really helps to do it the way I used to when I was a teenager and had slumber parties. Play with each other's hair and come up with new styles in a group (even one buddy is helpful!)
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DaveDecker
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The bottom line is this: hair is a personal expression of who you are and how you want the world to perceive you. If a client wants a hairstyle that I think would be unattractive on them, I explain why and make alternate suggestions. If they REALLY want it and it won't cause undo damage to the hair, then I do what I am told.
I say this unemotionally... I find it curious that your approach seems to involve a test of the degree with which the client is firm in their resolve to get what they want... and they get that only if they are firm. Otherwise, you find it appropriate to sway their opinion.
auramae wrote:
I guess the only answer I have is that some plumbers/electricians/cooks are better than others, too. I don't believe that all of them are awful any more than I believe that all hairdressers are.
I sense that you have missed the point. Nobody is questioning the technical competency of the skills in which hairstylists are trained. The point seems to be that stylists are taught (in school... and beyond?) that the guidelines for hairstyles matching face shape are to be fastidiously applied. Those of us with long and very long hair, who would merely want such services as shampooing, scalp massage, deep conditioning, trims, and hairdressing, are discouraged from considering going to salons for these services when the atmosphere is hostile to our aims (yes, the "hungry" stylists described by Anne are not uncommon). Many of us feel that we (and our wishes for the above services) are not treated with respect - so why bother going to the salon at all? The way I see it, there is a huge potential in professionally and respectfully catering to the long and very-long haired, and the salon industry in general has turned their back to this potential market.
auramae wrote:
The states mandate that we have a certain number of hours of instruction (usually 1500-2000) and in that time the school can barely teach us how not to maim or mutilate someone.
I can't begin to imagine why this generous amount of time could not be used more efficiently and effectively.
auramae wrote:
There is really very little time to teach artistry and nuance.
Most of the services that the long and very-long haired might request are technical skills. Hairdressing could be considered both technical and artistic.
auramae wrote:
I think the reason there are fewer hairdressers with (let's call it extra-long) long hair is that we see so many new styles every day and we stannd in front of a mirror for 8-12 hours a day and we get bored! There is always some cute new style or color and we can't wait to try it on ourselves!
Boredom is in the control of the individual. And sometimes, I suspect, the way it's alleviated in salons is to apply these new things to willing clients. Have we come back to my aforementioned litmus test of firmness here?
auramae wrote:
The brutal reality about styling long hair is that it will always be easier for someone else to do it than to do it yourself. That is why, for milennia, women who could afford it had someone on staff to dress their hair. Simple logistics state that I can reach better because I am above and behind you and your arms can only reach so far...
Hairdressing services offered to the very-long haired would be a great market to serve...
I agree with you on many of your points. I even agreed that hairdressing services offered to the very-long haired like you and me would be a great market to serve
As a businesswoman who is constantly thinking about the bottom line....I know that even though very long haired hairdressing services would be a great market to serve.....it would not be financially rewarding for the person offering the services if all they served was very long hair.
Just as a doctor who buzzes in and out of patient rooms every 8 minutes makes a lot more than the doctor that spends 1 hour per patient, time is money. And long hair takes a lot of time to care for on a professional level if it not just a tiny trim.
I am not saving it's right for hairdressers to shun long hair clients or that it is right for doctors to rush through their patient visits. In fact, I look for doctors who will give me one hour and hairdressers that will treat my long hair with respect and care (hard to find).
To be really great with long hair like a Martin Parsons, Barbara Lhotan or Patrick Cameron, they had to spend years and years of study and practice. They invested in the development of their knowledge base. So when they want to charge $250 for working on someone's long hair, they are in essence also charging for all the investment that they made to get to that point. How many people are willing to plop down $250 for their long hair? Maybe some but definitely not the majority.
Ken Paves charges $4,500 per day or many hundreds for just a haircut. He is currently considered one of the top 10 hairdressers in the US. I have watched him work for years. He is worth every penny.
Sally Hershberger I believe charges $600 for a haircut and she doesn't wash your hair or blow dry it. She just does the cut...which may take all of 10 minutes. Yet again, she is charging for her 25 years as an expert and the fact that she has created award winning haircuts for her celeb clients.
This whole topic is just one of those difficult life situations that I never seem to find the perfect answer to. I understand both sides of the situation. Would I spend $250 on my long hair? Probably not. It is healthy and never needs more than a good trim. I spend a lot on treating it myself. Would I pay $250 to have it treated at the salon? Again, probably not. I refuse to spend more than a certain amount for spa treatments. It just seems to be too much.
As a side note, I personally know two former long hair experts that stopped working on long hair because it was not financially rewarding to them (all of the issues I mentioned above). They now both do hair extensions (which is very financially rewarding). Which is ironic in a big way. :-)
That which doesn't kill you makes you stronger or drives you totally insane. :-)
I guess I have just never worked in a place where there was anyone with an agenda about hair length. Nor have I worked anywhere we would do more than was asked. If someone comes in for a scalp massage and shamppo, that's what we give them.
Hairdressing is absolutley a technical skill and an art. Successful hairdressers are able to balance both. Many are not (which may explain why the average income for hairstylists in the US is $20K.) Washing, conditioning and combing long hair is a skill. Dressing long hair is an art. Some hairdressers are great artists and yet can screw up hair in a heartbeat because they don't have any idea of what not to do.
Cosmetology students only get to practivce on clients who come in. If all the clients they do at beauty school have short hair, that is where they will have experience.
As for "willing clients", we have no dissagreement. If the client is willing and the stylist is willing, where is the problem? Some of my clients like purple hair and some don't. I don't try to talk every one into purple hair.
I only try to talk people out of what they asked if I REALLY think it will look bad or be something they are unwilling to maintain. If they have already thought through all the possible problems and still want it then I would do it. I think it would come under the label of informed consent. (Again, barring compromising the integrity of the hair.)
I fail to see how waist legth (or floor length) is differrent from bra strap length if
we are talking about face shape. If it all hangs behind your
shoulders, it doesn't impact the face.
If you want a green mohawk, I will do at (AFTER talking through all the possible downsides) the same as if you want to cut bangs if you haven't had them before. We talk things through and come to an agreement. That's why they call it a consultation.
Hairdressers and clients are in relationships. Just like if you want your love or family relationships to thrive, you have to be honest and supportive. You can do both in balance. I have clients that I have been seeing for almost 20 years. Through different hairstyles and different lifestyles.
We grow together or we grow apart, just like every other relationship in your life.
The first step to being able to cater to the very long haired folk would be for someone to design a shampoo bowl that wouldn't force the hair to be balled up. I think this is where alot of the discomfort arises. If I make it a knotted mess when I shampoo it, it isn't going to be very pleasant when I have to comb it out.
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DaveDecker
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As a side note, I personally know two former long hair experts that stopped working on long hair because it was not financially rewarding to them (all of the issues I mentioned above). They now both do hair extensions (which is very financially rewarding). Which is ironic in a big way. :-)
Hi Karen, I recently read about the profitability of servicing the wants and needs of "the tail" of the distribution curve of demand. The primary example given was of CD's sold by Wal-Mart (~50,000 titles) and amazon (millions of titles). The message is that it is very profitable for amazon to cater to the non-mainstream. Perhaps in this case, it's just a matter of product (or in this case, service) delivery that is the hang-up. Of course, I don't personally know anybody who's willing to pay $250 for an updo, either.
As a side note, I personally know two former long hair experts that stopped working on long hair because it was not financially rewarding to them (all of the issues I mentioned above). They now both do hair extensions (which is very financially rewarding). Which is ironic in a big way. :-)
Hi Karen, I recently read about the profitability of servicing the wants and needs of "the tail" of the distribution curve of demand. The primary example given was of CD's sold by Wal-Mart (~50,000 titles) and amazon (millions of titles). The message is that it is very profitable for amazon to cater to the non-mainstream. Perhaps in this case, it's just a matter of product (or in this case, service) delivery that is the hang-up. Of course, I don't personally know anybody who's willing to pay $250 for an updo, either.
Hi Dave....yes you are right about servicing the "tails". We see this with some of our hair accessories that we carry that no one else wants to mess with. The reason is because hair accessories offer many unique management challenges which after 5 years we have overcome to make it worthwhile for us. It would not be so for many just getting into the biz because there are lots of hills. I do think that for a "star" long hair stylist I might pay $250 for an updo for a special event.
One of my magazine editors who has naturally curly hair just spent $250 + the cost of a round trip plane ticket to New York to fly Robert Hallowell to her wedding to do her bridal up. It was stunningly beautiful and the best her naturally curly hair has looked...her entire life...according to her. That is definitely a special event. To her it was worth every penny. I know of some people who might pay as much as $150 for a Prom or other special party. I guess it is all relative. :-)
That which doesn't kill you makes you stronger or drives you totally insane. :-)
Hairdressing services offered to the very-long haired would be a great market to serve...
I don't know about just the "very" long haired, but the George Michael Long Hair salons that exist seem to be well established. I'll drive a few times a year to the one outside of Cleveland for the special services they offer. The drive is almost 1.5 hours, but it is well worth it for me. I do think that these salons probably have to exist near a major city to make it. There is also one down in Columbus.
I've always been grateful when a stylist has given me the "pros & cons" of a possible style/cut. I'd be upset if I found out something about a cut after it was done, and the stylist had the opportunity to tell me prior to doing the cut. When I had shorter hair, I remember my trusted stylist telling me about the cons of a certain style, but I went ahead with it anyways. I still appreciated her input.
I don't believe in stylists trying to get people with long hair to cut it.
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Well in Miri's case no because when we went to get her hair trimmed she had her hair flat-ironed at home and the guy cut it before it was thoroughly wet down and dry, fine-combed it, and when Miri tryed to tell him how she wanted her hair he completely ignored her and cut it in a wierd shape with layers. But he was a quiet person and seemed nice enough. I guess the flat-ironing confused him.
DaveDecker
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... when Miri tryed to tell him how she wanted her hair he completely ignored her and cut it in a wierd shape with layers. But he was a quiet person and seemed nice enough. I guess the flat-ironing confused him.
Is he a recent cosmetology graduate?
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I really like my stylist but lately I found that he is changing. He seem to be tired of hairdressing and it is showing in his attitude.
He gave me a great colour close to my natural colour and trimmed my hair. I mentioned that I wanted very very long hair and he said" no." "it would be too much work". I rolled my eyes and laughed. I didn't allow him to upset me or anything of the sort. I am in the driver seat not him.
There is nothing to argue. I pay someone to do their job and if they can't it is my responsiblity to let them know that they will never see me again and I will say it so calmly and nicely that they will shiver in their shoes.
He is very good in colouring and styling the hair. The next time he says no I will smile and say" gee stylists are a dime a dozen, hum where is the yellow pages as my fingers do the walking ... and do you really think you have a say about what I will wear?' Ha ha.
At that point if I feel he didn't climbed down from his ego ladder I will find someone else. In fact in the province where I go to my cottage their a stylist that has long hair to her ankles and I can easily make an appointment and drive 2 1/2 hours to see her so I am not worried. I like that stylist also. Noone should ever think that they are the only one that their client will ever see.
dianefromcanada
Edited by dianefromcanada - August 09 2006 at 12:06am
I am finding it ironic that after years of scissor happy stylists... I found one who was far from. She was cautious, careful, and seemed pained to be cutting so much of my hair...
after I decided I wanted to try short hair.
I thought SHE was going to cry as she cut a foot off of my hair... I was fine.
(if you live in the Chattanooga, TN area, I'll refer you....)
Bob S
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Browneyedgirl, even if I had the talent to cut hair well, which I do not, I just couldn't do it! If it meant cutting long hair to short, it would be too demoralizing for me. Five years back, I cut 6" off my DW's hair to her shoulders, and I was in a funk for quite a while. I vowed then that I'd *never* participate in a drastic chop again. Now, I have no problem with *trimming* her hair straight across, but a major chop of anyone's beautiful locks again, no way! (lol) Bob
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auramae wrote:
and cut it in a wierd shape with layers. But he was a quiet person and seemed nice enough. I guess the flat-ironing confused him.
Browneyedgirl, even if I had the talent to cut hair well, which I do not, I just couldn't do it! If it meant cutting long hair to short, it would be too demoralizing for me. Five years back, I cut 6" off my DW's hair to her shoulders, and I was in a funk for quite a while. I vowed then that I'd *never* participate in a drastic chop again. Now, I have no problem with *trimming* her hair straight across, but a major chop of anyone's beautiful locks again, no way! (lol) 
Bob
