QuoteReplyTopic: To Anyone I Offended-I'm Sorry. Posted: January 11 2000 at 9:11pm
Teresa and Noreen,I've been thinking it over and I want to apologize for the remarks I said ("freakish", "looks tasteless", etc). I truly am sorry. I'm sensitive too and those remarks would've probably bothered me too. I just thought that because I'd seen so many posts from other people who couldn't seem to understand why they got the remarks they did that maybe being blunt was the way to go about it. I was wrong and I wish I could go back and change what I did. I honestly didn't set out to hurt anyone. I hope you both believe that. Most importantly as a Christian I should have remembered to view people's feelings first. I failed to do that. I hope that you can both (and anyone else)forgive me. I just should have said it was too much of a good thing, or something along those lines. Until I posted to this subject, I think I might have seen your posts Teresa now and again (I've only been here about 7 months) and I don't remember what they were about and Noreen, I never saw your posts on any boards or knew anything of you at all. So, I just want to be sure to make it clear it wasn't aimed at you particularly-but still, I'm sorry to ANYONE who I might have offended with these comments. The trailer remark was a repeat of a remark by someone else, but it was wrong to repeat it, and I hope that you saw that I apologized for that on another post. If not, I'm sorry and want to be sure you know that. I still stand by my advice, and that was taking into consideration what people are saying, and being honest with yourself how it might look. I just shouldn't have been so blunt with my thoughts unless someone with knee-length hair asked me to be blunt, and even then I should write it to the person privately.Dave, I'm risking having you think that your taking me to task the way you did was the way to go about it, since I'm apologizing for it here.Mainly your posts just put me off, and didn't make me feel self-reflective. So what made me think it over? Like I stated before, my personal convictions, and also, remembering there are real people behind the posts. I didn't get any private hate mail or complaints-actually I got a few support letters.I still think you really take people to task for not even being all that negative at all. I guess that's something you have to decide for yourself but it explains why I did go into this strongly and not only because of your posts Dave but others I've seen that are ready to jump on anyone with an opposing view and don't even make the remarks that I've made. Well, I guess that's my problem if I decide to join in-I just thought since you pointed out what I did wrong, I want to also show you where you aren't being fair. Fair enough?:)) I must admit there was one statement you made that later also helped me to think about my remarks:> Yes, as you acknowledged before, I am sensitive. But I> consider that sensitivity> a gift. It helps me to discern the nature and intent> of the words of others.> And I saw your (and Ally's) words as being insulting> and derogatory. Would it> be too much to suggest choosing words that objectively> describe why you like> or dislike something without loading them full of> derogation?No, it wouldn't be too much. Like I said(believe it or not:))I'm sensitive, too. I actually thought most of this post was quite reasonable. Anyway, I just wanted to apologize, and hopefully Dave you and I will find more common ground in the future!:)If anyone would like to write me personally rather than here, please feel free.Thanks,Holly
Hi!I was glad to see your note. I have to say that I was utterly disgusted by the whole discussion. The words chosen went long past sniping. They were hurtful and degrading.I was too angry to respond so I did not. I'm sure if I had Karen and Jeff would have ousted me:)Thank you, Dave, for addressing the comments in a calm, rational manner. I am positive that you made your points. You did with me:)All the Best,Jade21> I've been thinking it over and I want to apologize for> the remarks I said ("freakish", "looks> tasteless", etc). I truly am sorry. I'm sensitive> too and those remarks would've probably bothered me> too. I just thought that because I'd seen so many> posts from other people who couldn't seem to> understand why they got the remarks they did that> maybe being blunt was the way to go about it. I was> wrong and I wish I could go back and change what I> did. I honestly didn't set out to hurt anyone. I hope> you both believe that. Most importantly as a Christian> I should have remembered to view people's feelings> first. I failed to do that. I hope that you can both> (and anyone else)forgive me. I just should have said> it was too much of a good thing, or something along> those lines. Until I posted to this subject, I think I> might have seen your posts Teresa now and again (I've> only been here about 7 months) and I don't remember> what they were about and Noreen, I never saw your> posts on any boards or knew anything of you at all.> So, I just want to be sure to make it clear it wasn't> aimed at you particularly-but still, I'm sorry to> ANYONE who I might have offended with these comments.> The trailer remark was a repeat of a remark by someone> else, but it was wrong to repeat it, and I hope that> you saw that I apologized for that on another post. If> not, I'm sorry and want to be sure you know that. I> still stand by my advice, and that was taking into> consideration what people are saying, and being honest> with yourself how it might look. I just shouldn't have> been so blunt with my thoughts unless someone with> knee-length hair asked me to be blunt, and even then I> should write it to the person privately.> Dave, I'm risking having you think that your taking me> to task the way you did was the way to go about it,> since I'm apologizing for it here.> Mainly your posts just put me off, and didn't make me> feel self-reflective. So what made me think it over?> Like I stated before, my personal convictions, and> also, remembering there are real people behind the> posts. I didn't get any private hate mail or> complaints-actually I got a few support letters.> I still think you really take people to task for not> even being all that negative at all. I guess that's> something you have to decide for yourself but it> explains why I did go into this strongly and not only> because of your posts Dave but others I've seen that> are ready to jump on anyone with an opposing view and> don't even make the remarks that I've made. Well, I> guess that's my problem if I decide to join in-I just> thought since you pointed out what I did wrong, I want> to also show you where you aren't being fair. Fair> enough?:)) I must admit there was one statement you> made that later also helped me to think about my> remarks:> No, it wouldn't be too much. Like I said(believe it or> not:))I'm sensitive, too. I actually thought most of> this post was quite reasonable. Anyway, I just wanted> to apologize, and hopefully Dave you and I will find> more common ground in the future!:)> If anyone would like to write me personally rather> than here, please feel free.> Thanks,> Holly
Noreen
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Hi Holly,Apology accepted. I am glad that you have taken the time to try and understand how some of us might have been hurt. Though I don't expect you or anyone else to like my chosen hair length, I do want to be treated with the same consideration as anyone else. And if I have written anything that has offended you personally, I also apologize. I never meant to attack you, I only wanted you to try to see how I was interpreting what you were saying. Even though you and I have disagreed on this issue, I hope that we can go on from here and explore other issues.As for not seeing posts from me before, it must just be a timing issue. I had my own section on TLHS for about 5 or 6 months(that was 3 years ago), I wrote an article for The Hair Boutique, I used to post frequently on Hair Talk and I do participate on the TLHS mailing list. Though I have been quiet for a while I can write up a storm when truly motivated...:-)Anyway, thanks again for your apology!Take care,Noreen
> Teresa and Noreen,> I've been thinking it over and I want to apologize for> the remarks I said ("freakish", "looks> tasteless", etc). I truly am sorry. I'm sensitive> too and those remarks would've probably bothered me> too. I just thought that because I'd seen so many> posts from other people who couldn't seem to> understand why they got the remarks they did that> maybe being blunt was the way to go about it. I was> wrong and I wish I could go back and change what I> did. I honestly didn't set out to hurt anyone. I hope> you both believe that. Most importantly as a Christian> I should have remembered to view people's feelings> first. I failed to do that. I hope that you can both> (and anyone else)forgive me. I just should have said> it was too much of a good thing, or something along> those lines. Until I posted to this subject, I think I> might have seen your posts Teresa now and again (I've> only been here about 7 months) and I don't remember> what they were about and Noreen, I never saw your> posts on any boards or knew anything of you at all.> So, I just want to be sure to make it clear it wasn't> aimed at you particularly-but still, I'm sorry to> ANYONE who I might have offended with these comments.> The trailer remark was a repeat of a remark by someone> else, but it was wrong to repeat it, and I hope that> you saw that I apologized for that on another post. If> not, I'm sorry and want to be sure you know that. I> still stand by my advice, and that was taking into> consideration what people are saying, and being honest> with yourself how it might look. I just shouldn't have> been so blunt with my thoughts unless someone with> knee-length hair asked me to be blunt, and even then I> should write it to the person privately.You know, Holly, as this is a Hair Politics board, it is within your "rights"(so to speak) to broach the subject of your dislike of knee-length hair, evenif your opinion had not been solicited by a person with knee-length hair.Of course, *how* it's broached makes all the difference in the world to thereactions of others...> Dave, I'm risking having you think that your taking me> to task the way you did was the way to go about it,> since I'm apologizing for it here.> Mainly your posts just put me off, and didn't make me> feel self-reflective. So what made me think it over?> Like I stated before, my personal convictions, and> also, remembering there are real people behind the> posts. I didn't get any private hate mail or> complaints-actually I got a few support letters.> I still think you really take people to task for not> even being all that negative at all. I guess that's> something you have to decide for yourself but it> explains why I did go into this strongly and not only> because of your posts Dave but others I've seen that> are ready to jump on anyone with an opposing view and> don't even make the remarks that I've made.Please be aware that this is YOUR perspective. If/when I challenge someoneelse's expressed viewpoints, I do so because their words seem to me to beeither offensive, illogical, or otherwise demanding a rebuttal, IMO.The first two posts in that thread were from Ally, and then from you, bothstating that knee-length hair was "freakish," etc. It may not have seemed"all that negative" to you, but I think you see that others viewed it asbeing quite negative (especially to some people who have -- or who want andmay one day have -- knee-length hair).> Well, I> guess that's my problem if I decide to join in-Everybody's words are subject to scrutiny here. It's a *Politics* board.> I just> thought since you pointed out what I did wrong, I want> to also show you where you aren't being fair. Fair> enough?:))I appreciate your apology. Thank you. I don't know how I wasn't beingfair, but I will admit that I could have initially handled my disagreementmore calmly.> I must admit there was one statement you> made that later also helped me to think about my> remarks:> No, it wouldn't be too much. Like I said(believe it or> not:))I'm sensitive, too. I actually thought most of> this post was quite reasonable. Anyway, I just wanted> to apologize, and hopefully Dave you and I will find> more common ground in the future!:)> If anyone would like to write me personally rather> than here, please feel free.Even if we fail to find common ground, I hope that we can be respectful toeach other's -- and to other people's -- feelings.Dave
Holly,Thanks for the appology about how you expressed your opinion. I personally wasn't offended, but others definitely were. I read your words as a very strong expression of your opinion, not an attack on my personal choice. From experience I would say it is very important to choose your words carefully, though I'm sure you're very aware of that by now.The scene did get kind of ugly though, and that's why I didn't post any further responses. I enjoy debates, but hate fights or even strong disagreements of just about any sort. So, even though I found the subject quite interesting, I didn't want to risk getting caught up in all the politics.I did find your underlying opinion interesting though. It's one that I'd never heard before and was curious about the reasoning behind it. I have seen women with long hair that I definitely think need a trim, at least to conform to my aesthetic. However it has never been a particular length, it varies greatly from individual to individual. I personally like hair that looks healthy and has a relatively neat line at the bottom. (Just a couple of weeks ago I had around three inches trimmed off my own hair because it didn't look the way that I wanted.)I personally have never had a negative reaction to my hair and just a week or two before these posts had been discussing the subject with a good friend. It seems that many of the ladies with long hair have had negative experiences and pressure to cut their hair, even ladies with hair shorter than waist length. I really would like to have a better understanding of these pressures and experiences. Perhaps I have been unconciously doing something to avoid them. Something that with further study I might be able to identify and then help others to also avoid such experiences, which don't sound at all pleasant.I've rambled on long enough for now, but perhaps we could continue the discussion at some future point, with everyone being a bit more sensitive of their word choice to hopefully avoid misunderstandings.Take care,Teresa
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Hi Noreen,I just want to say...it is so good to see your post here. And yes, you can write up a wonderful storm when you are motivated. :-) I still cherish the piece you did for Hair Boutique and still look at your incredible hair photos from time to time.Actually Jeff and I were looking at a piece about Debra Jo Fondren just tonite and I was telling Jeff "Debra's hair was/is secondary to Noreen's in thickness and beauty".I am not going to comment on this specific To Anyone I Offended thread except to say Jeff and I prefer for everyone to work things out on their own, if possible.I hope you are doing well and enjoying your summer.Best wishes & a hugKaren> Hi Holly,> Apology accepted. I am glad that you have taken the> time to try and understand how some of us might have> been hurt. Though I don't expect you or anyone else to> like my chosen hair length, I do want to be treated> with the same consideration as anyone else. And if I> have written anything that has offended you> personally, I also apologize. I never meant to attack> you, I only wanted you to try to see how I was> interpreting what you were saying. Even though you and> I have disagreed on this issue, I hope that we can go> on from here and explore other issues.> As for not seeing posts from me before, it must just> be a timing issue. I had my own section on TLHS for> about 5 or 6 months(that was 3 years ago), I wrote an> article for The Hair Boutique, I used to post> frequently on Hair Talk and I do participate on the> TLHS mailing list. Though I have been quiet for a> while I can write up a storm when truly> motivated...:-)> Anyway, thanks again for your apology!> Take care,> Noreen
TAKE CARE WITH YOUR HAIR!
Holly
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Dave,My Statement:>I just shouldn't have> been so blunt with my thoughts unless someone with> knee-length hair asked me to be blunt, and even then I> should write it to the person privately.Dave's Statement:>You know, Holly, as this is a Hair Politics board, it is within your "rights">(so to speak) to broach the subject of your dislike of knee-length hair, even>if your opinion had not been solicited by a person with knee-length hairThis I already know. What I meant here was that if they were asking me to make blunt statements, and by that I mean statements that might really be offending, then I'll write it privately. This goes for any topic.My Statement:> I still think you really take people to task for not> even being all that negative at all. I guess that's> something you have to decide for yourself but it> explains why I did go into this strongly and not only> because of your posts Dave but others I've seen that> are ready to jump on anyone with an opposing view and> don't even make the remarks that I've made.Dave's statement:>Please be aware that this is YOUR perspective. If/when I challenge someone>else's expressed viewpoints, I do so because their words seem to me to be>either offensive, illogical, or otherwise demanding a rebuttal, IMO.Dave, what I have been saying all along to you in these posts is that this isn't only my perspective. It wouldn't be right to name them. You'll just have to take my word for it.Dave's statement:>The first two posts in that thread were from Ally, and then from you, both>stating that knee-length hair was "freakish," etc. It may not have seemed>"all that negative" to you, but I think you see that others viewed it as being quite negative (especially to >some people who have -- or who want and may one day have >knee-length hair).Dave, right here is either a perfect example of having words twisted, or that I didn't make myself clear in all the other posts that I've written here for you on this thread. Before you comment, please look at what I said:>I still think you really take people to task for not> even being all that negative at all....explains why I did >go into this strongly and not only> because of your posts Dave but *others I've seen that> are ready to jump on anyone with an opposing view and> *don't even make the remarks that I've made.I'm talking about whole other threads-not this one. Threads that have nothing to do with this one. I thought you would understand what I meant by this because you had acknowledged before what I said about other people's postings, wondering who they might be. I know mine was too harsh! Obviously, I wouldn't mean this one because I'm apologizing for the words that I used.Dave's statement:>I appreciate your apology. Thank you. I don't know how I >wasn't being>fair, but I will admit that I could have initially handled >my disagreement>more calmlyDave, I'm not trying to apologize here as a ploy to get you to throw an apology back to me. I don't operate that way. NOT THAT I'M SAYING YOU'RE ACCUSING ME OF THIS-and I'm not yelling, just trying to make it very clear-I don't even really you think that, but don't want this misconstrued by anyone else. I do think that I put myself on the line here, and I can admit to things that I find wrong that I've done. It's not hard for me to do that, mind you, when I do feel that I'm wrong. I think now I should have said that this apology was for anyone with knee-length hair-not just anyone-because that's who deserves the apology (except of course for the trailer park comment that I have apologized for from before). However, if you can't see what I'm pointing out, about being unfair -MAINLY to OTHERS was what I was referring to-maybe not 100% of the time but quite a fair share of the time(again, I thought it was clear that you know what I'm referring to-it's been talked about and acknowledged between us before on this thread)- well, I just can't keep playing word games, so let's just finish this. I give up trying to make you understand everything I say. If you need to have the last word, then be my guest, but I give up.Holly
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Teresa and Noreen,Thanks for understanding. Nice to see your gracious responses. I'm glad you weren't offended, Teresa, your idea for another look sometime later into these issues would be interesting.Noreen, I don't think I ever saw your posts on tlhs mailing list because I've only been there maybe 2 months or so. I only got started on the internet 3 years ago (not even quite that, yet)so I wasn't even aware of tlhs page at that time. I'll have to go read your article here on HB when I get a chance.>Though I have been quiet for a while I can write up a >storm when truly motivated...:-)Well, I guess we all see I can too!:))))Thanks again both of you,Holly
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